The Battle of Britain Was The First Defeat For The German Luftwaffe.

[Sternjaeger II]

I'm sorry Bongo,you know I like you man,but I dont think we'll ever agree on this one. I'm approaching this with an unbiased historian perspective,you're taking this more on a national pride thing.

I suppose that when my (British) history professor told me "there's no way to point out to a Briton that the Battle of Britain was in fact no victory" he knew what he was talking about

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

I'm sorry Bongo,you know I like you man,but I dont think we'll ever agree on this one. I'm approaching this with an unbiased historian perspective,you're taking this more on a national pride thing.

I suppose that when my (British) history professor told me "there's no way to point out to a Briton that the Battle of Britain was in fact no victory" he knew what he was talking about

Same here, we have more things outside of this that we do agree on.

I just find it very confusing how some people interpret a Brit saying 'we won the battle of britain' as 'we won the war single handed', even more confusing is this desparate need by the same people to find the most insignificant semantics to try and discredit the British with any ability to fight in any way shape or form, the fact is we fought extremely well for the most part and have a hell of alot to be proud of, like just fighting because it was the right thing to do, so we had friends to help....mainly because they knew it was the right thing to do as well, if it floats your boat to believe the Germans were merely distracted by anything the Brits did then fine.....it's a free world (but no thanks to the Allies eh?)

just because your history teacher was British doesn't prove anything

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

Same here, we have more things outside of this that we do agree on.

I just find it very confusing how some people interpret a Brit saying 'we won the battle of britain' as 'we won the war single handed', even more confusing is this desparate need by the same people to find the most insignificant semantics to try and discredit the British with any ability to fight in any way shape or form, the fact is we fought extremely well for the most part and have a hell of alot to be proud of, like just fighting because it was the right thing to do, so we had friends to help....mainly because they knew it was the right thing to do as well, if it floats your boat to believe the Germans were merely distracted by anything the Brits did then fine.....it's a free world (but no thanks to the Allies eh?)

I completely agree on this,I never said that the British didnt fight with courage and determination,but as you said it's easy to get lost in the semantics.

People who are passionate and proud about their country and history talk about "victory" "d-day" "freedom" "spitfire" etc... it's the shallow propaganda fascination that is appealing to the masses. Historians go beyond this,the risk of a biased judgement is far too great,it's necessary to research,analyse events within their historical context,leaving hindsight for conclusions,but it's dangerous to use hindsight to judge upon history.

Was the invasion of Russia a mistake? It wasn't in 1941,but in hindsight we can say it was. If Hitler pushed his way to Moscow,it could have meant a serious blow for Russian integrity,he decided instead to lose time to capture the Dnepr area to reach onto strategic reserves,again the right thing to do with the perspective of the time,but in hindsight it was a mistake.

just because your history teacher was British doesn't prove anything

That is true,but he surprised me,as much as it surprised me that he wasn't alone in his judgement.

[bongodriver]

That is true,but he surprised me,as much as it surprised me that he wasn't alone in his judgement.

Well it's sad to say there are quite a few of these hairy shirted lefty treacherous worms that go around spreading that kind of crap in this country.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

Well it's sad to say there are quite a few of these hairy shirted lefty treacherous worms that go around spreading that kind of crap in this country.

I don't think that this generalisation does you any good man.

Just because people have an opinion different than yours (and a well motivated one, I must add), this doesn't make them treacherous worms.

The danger of writing history is that you need to be careful not to follow at all costs the doctrine of "we won, we're the good ones".

Don't ever forget that if they won the war, they would be the good ones and the Allies would be the baddies..

Although I'm sure that this conversation actually happened somewhere at some point

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsNLbK8_rBY

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

Don't ever forget that if they won the war, they would be the good ones and the Allies would be the baddies..

That is the most idiotic thing I have ever read. The Nazis (and Germans who helped them) would have been the bad ones no matter who won the war.

[Kongo-Otto]

Originally Posted by IamNotDavid

That is the most idiotic thing I have ever read. The Nazis (and Germans who helped them) would have been the bad ones no matter who won the war.

Oh really and when the Nazis would have won, who would be there to say that they are the bad ones? Know what i mean?

[ATAG_Dutch]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

I'm approaching this with an unbiased historian perspective.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by Dutch_851

How is that supposed to be funny? Apart for the different conclusions that we reached,where did I show any bias or mention incorrect references? It might be a light argument for you,but I take the thing very seriously,considering that I achieved a BA Hons in History in the UK and argued over this topic endlessly ever since.

For the record,I too believed that Great Britain won the Battle of Britain,but I was proven wrong (as many of my course mates,and not without polemics) by a British Professor.

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

How is that supposed to be funny? Apart for the different conclusions that we reached,where did I show any bias or mention incorrect references? It might be a light argument for you,but I take the thing very seriously,considering that I achieved a BA Hons in History in the UK and argued over this topic endlessly ever since.

For the record,I too believed that Great Britain won the Battle of Britain,but I was proven wrong (as many of my course mates,and not without polemics) by a British Professor.

Yeah well for the record there are some aspects of the British education system that suck balls, there is a weird liberalism phenomenon in this country that is teaching it's bad to have National pride....'might upset the foreigners you know! whatwhat', may as well knock down the cenotaph.