Horton

[bongodriver]

What I am aiming at is the the UK did not declare their wars out of humantirian reasons, the way it is always displayed, but pure power politics following century old traditions.

I honestly don't think it has been claimed as such, and old habbits die hard as they say eh!

Actually, I agree. But the british always complain about Germany starting it all, while technically, they declared war on Germany, not vice versa. Imagine Germany declaring war on the UK for invading the Falklands and then blaming you guys for starting it all.


Despite this rant I maintain the sentiment of a hearty cheer and hope you enjoy that drink.

We don't complain about it....seriously we don't, we just have a habbit of reminding people of it
The rest of the analogy is a bit like Germany invading Poland and blaming the French.......Ordinarily the Brits could get on board with that but there was a small issue of a previous war ending in an agreement between us and Pierre.

Imagine 60 years, and pretty much all my life, finger pointing and blames from other nationalities simply for my own nationality, despite never having done anything that would justify such blames. Eventually you adapt. You have to look not further then current news all over Europe to know what I mean.

Are you 60?.....I shall endeavour to be much more respectfull to my elder kidding of course I know what you mean, I symapathise to an extent but somehow it pales when compared to the blame Britain faces for the Empire, the people that perpetrated all of that died centuries ago but for some reason in particular in the UK we are obliged to feel ashamed for being White Anglo Saxons.
Don't be too cynical, you should forgive the attitudes aimed toward an ideology of a campaign aimed at unifying Europe headed effectively by the Germans, Germany most avidly support the EU but on the other hand seem the least comfortable with providing the bailouts to keep it alive, ah the price of maintaining an empire.

No, that is not what I am saying. I actually like the UK. I am actually glad they declared war. I am not even angry over the bombing campaigns at all. That is something Germany brought onto itself for following that gangster.
But I am highly annoyed at the hypocrisy displayed and the way a lot of british try to use those crimes as a knock out argument in any debate over that time.

What I am saying is that Britian should display a bit more modesty when it comes to finger pointing due to their own history, especially at current generation Germans. And also give credit where credit is due at times.

I like Germans and am also glad Britain declared war.
I think your annoyance is quite misplaced, I really don't see evidence of any of what you say, it's just unfortunate that your contries recent history can so often be brought up in debate, this topic is a discussion on German innovation which sadly is only due to it's military ambitions at the time, so I don't see how mentioning the war is misplaced here to be honest.

Modesty? the UK is the epitome of modesty, just look at the June 1st update thread and see the measuring contest it turned into, the vulgar claims to how many thousands of aces nations had blah blah with a completely unnecessary yet unchallenged refference to how 'few' the UK had

despite the rant I maintain the sentiment of that hearty cheers and hope you enjoy that drink.

[ATAG_Dutch]

I haven't had a drink as yet, but would like to ask Beowulf a question which is seriously off-topic.

I used to attend the IPMS Scale Modelling Nationals in Telford every year. People from all over the world come to this event.

One year, a German chap was giving a talk on the Bf109, having written a book on the subject, and we met up with him and his friends in the bar at lunchtime.

Before the first pint of beer had even been drank, the German chaps were apologising to us for their country's actions during the second world war. All of us were around the same age, born in the 60s and so had no direct involvement in the conflict. As Brits, we found this a little embarrassing and were telling the German chaps that there was no need to apologise to those present for what happened in a bygone age.

So I wondered, is this something German people are advised to do when attending any event connected with militaria? Or is it that those specific individuals felt there was a need to do so?

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

I honestly don't think it has been claimed as such, and old habbits die hard as they say eh!

Oh you would not believe home many ppl make it out be like that. These kinda debates almost always come down to this sooner or later. The "alien, superhuman" references playing on the Aryan masterrace bullocks is just the tip of the iceberg. (btw, why does "Iceberg" contain the german word berg, aka "mountain"? It is "Eisberg" in german)

We don't complain about it....seriously we don't, we just have a habbit of reminding people of it

let's Blitz Fritz, eh?=)

The rest of the analogy is a bit like Germany invading Poland and blaming the French.......Ordinarily the Brits could get on board with that but there was a small issue of a previous war ending in an agreement between us and Pierre.

Just that we did not blame the french...well, for that at least.
Generally though I think blaming France is fine.

Are you 60?.....I shall endeavour to be much more respectfull to my elder kidding of course I know what you mean, I symapathise to an extent but somehow it pales when compared to the blame Britain faces for the Empire, the people that perpetrated all of that died centuries ago but for some reason in particular in the UK we are obliged to feel ashamed for being White Anglo Saxons.
Don't be too cynical, you should forgive the attitudes aimed toward an ideology of a campaign aimed at unifying Europe headed effectively by the Germans, Germany most avidly support the EU but on the other hand seem the least comfortable with providing the bailouts to keep it alive, ah the price of maintaining an empire.

UK folks mostly blame themselves for the Empire. If you ask me because they subconciously realize blaming Germany and their own history do not go together too well.
I haven't seen much foreign press in this regard, though I may be wrong here.

The whole empire thing is a double edges sword, however.
The british and other european empires introduced european culture, ideas, customs and fashion all over the world, something that, purely from a business POV, still massivly benefits us all to this very day. Much of our wellbeing depends on that.

I like Germans and am also glad Britain declared war.
I think your annoyance is quite misplaced, I really don't see evidence of any of what you say, it's just unfortunate that your contries recent history can so often be brought up in debate, this topic is a discussion on German innovation which sadly is only due to it's military ambitions at the time, so I don't see how mentioning the war is misplaced here to be honest.

I do not think German innovation is limited to WW2. And I think that is what rubs a lot of Germans the wrong way these days, this implication that it must have been the Nazis with all that stuff. It ingores the developements before and during WWI and the interwar years, as well as modern Germany.

Modesty? the UK is the epitome of modesty, just look at the June 1st update thread and see the measuring contest it turned into, the vulgar claims to how many thousands of aces nations had blah blah with a completely unnecessary yet unchallenged refference to how 'few' the UK had

Well, I guess modesty is a culturally very relative term =)
Are those numbers correct, though?

despite the rant I maintain the sentiment of that hearty cheers and hope you enjoy that drink.

Pfff, it takes a lot more before I take internet history debates so serious that I actually start to dislike people. Esepcially when it is, like in Aces case, just a game of wits anyways

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Dutch

I haven't had a drink as yet, but would like to ask Beowulf a question which is seriously off-topic.

I used to attend the IPMS Scale Modelling Nationals in Telford every year. People from all over the world come to this event.

One year, a German chap was giving a talk on the Bf109, having written a book on the subject, and we met up with him and his friends in the bar at lunchtime.

Before the first pint of beer had even been drank, the German chaps were apologising to us for their country's actions during the second world war. All of us were around the same age, born in the 60s and so had no direct involvement in the conflict. As Brits, we found this a little embarrassing and were telling the German chaps that there was no need to apologise to those present for what happened in a bygone age.

So I wondered, is this something German people are advised to do when attending any event connected with militaria? Or is it that those specific individuals felt there was a need to do so?

I'd say that depends. It also differes wildley depending on generation. I am speaking with a west german history in mind here, though. Eastern Germany is a different story and reunification created an interesting mix.

Those born before 1945 usually just stay silent, today there are not many left anyways, but they never talk about the war, really. That has to do with later german history, too.

Those born in the last years of the war and after eventually rebelled in the 60ies against their parents for what they did in the war. They are called the 69ers here in Germany. That year started the RAF and a turbulent soul searching for what really happend. They also tended to blame the generation before in the same ultimate fashion as for example other nations did at that time, rebelled against the establishment, which still had a lot of former Nazis in positions of power, which resulted in something of a mental split with Germany as a country. It is probably folks of this generation you encounted. They really had the urge to apologize and make up for what happend in the name of their parents. Nothing to do with any official or inoffical advisement.

This attitude had lasting effects up until the late 90ies. Reunification changed everything all over again, Ppl today pretty much have a more balanced few, are aware of the countries atrocities and the responsebilities that comes with that, but do not want to get bothered with Nazi blames every other debate. In general they just see a country that is succesfull and rather well off, are proud of that achievement and look into the future. I guess I can consider myself one of those.

Younger folks these days then again are pretty much in line with everybody else in Europe, displaying the whole range from radical nationlism to liberal patriotism. For them the war does not play a role bar a year in school where they learend what happend in those days.

[ATAG_Dutch]

These chaps as I say were all born in the 60s like the Brits who were there, but your response explains a lot. Thanks..

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Dutch

These chaps as I say were all born in the 60s like the Brits who were there, but your response explains a lot. Thanks..

That was just a very general assesment. And as I said, the 69ers attitudes lasted well into the 90ies.

[bongodriver]

btw, why does "Iceberg" contain the german word berg, aka "mountain"? It is "Eisberg" in german

English is a Germanic language.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language yes it's wikipedia but it was a quick link and I don't see much to dispute.

The "alien, superhuman" references playing on the Aryan masterrace bullocks is just the tip of the iceberg.

Well you obviously haven't appreciated that there's people around...(not necessarily German) who really do push that idea around.

let's Blitz Fritz, eh?=)

Bally good show! what what!

Just that we did not blame the french...well, for that at least.
Generally though I think blaming France is fine.

I have seen it myself in other threads, I recall one famous MB avro thread in particular where the start of war was litterally justified on the basis that the treaty was a humiliation to Germany....effectively blaming the French for the start of WWII but forgetting why the treaty was made in the first place, and to cap it all look what happened the minute the treaty was contravened.

UK folks mostly blame themselves for the Empire

Interesting, I don't have the same experience.......but was the Empire really a bad thing? volcanoes kill people but they are what shape this planet, and back in that day and age Empirism was an innevitability, the civilised world had a hunger for expansion and they were willing to take resources from what they considered savages....so much has changed , India may have been able to enjoy a space programme without the British empire ever existing but you can bet your ass it would have been because of someone elses empire.

I do not think German innovation is limited to WW2, And I think that is what rubs a lot of Germans the wrong way these days.

Absolutely it's not, but here on a forum based on a WWII sim on a discussion about German wartime develpoment at that time?

Well, I guess modesty is a culturally very relative term =)
Are those numbers correct, though?

Here modesty means not 'bragging' or 'boasting' or other means of showing off particular attributes, to preserve ones modesty is to remain clothed or covered, I guess you believe the Brits have a tendency to brag about our higher moral stance with regards to the war etc, but we certainly don't brag about superior we are or crap like that, the British mentality is very much the 'plucky underdog' in that regard.

I have no idea how correct those numbers are, all I can say is I found no urge to immediately challenge them based on any feelings of innadequacy.

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

English is a Germanic language.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language yes it's wikipedia but it was a quick link and I don't see much to dispute.

Certainly is, made it incredible easy to learn. In contrast, I hated French in school.

Still, "berg" in connection with another native english word is rather odd.

Well you obviously haven't appreciated that there's people around...(not necessarily German) who really do push that idea around.

Nope, "appreciated" would be the wrong word here for sure.

I have seen it myself in other threads, I recall one famous MB avro thread in particular where the start of war was litterally justified on the basis that the treaty was a humiliation to Germany....effectively blaming the French for the start of WWII but forgetting why the treaty was made in the first place, and to cap it all look what happened the minute the treaty was contravened.

Avro is an agent Provocateur with a passion. Much bigger complexes over the war then you (or me) appear to show at times. The responses are mostly in kind.

However, the Versailles treaty was a humilation in more ways then most british realize. It was not just the financial conditions and lost territories, it also had to do with some very odd plebiscits in the east, rape on a massive scale during the occupation in the Rhineland by the French. The fact that Germany agreed to the Armistice based on Wilsons 14 point plan which was utterly trashed later in the negotiations. The fact that all war guilt was pushed on Germany, despite the Kaiser actually trying to attempt demobilisation in his letters with the Russian Csar. There are fair treates, and there are treaties especially aimed and kick an opponent already on the ground. This behaviour was expected from the French, not from the british.
The Versailles treaty was the latter and though I do not approve of the Nazis, I actually DO understand why people voted for them back then, also in connection with the Great Depression.

Interesting, I don't have the same experience.......but was the Empire really a bad thing? volcanoes kill people but they are what shape this planet, and back in that day and age Empirism was an innevitability, the civilised world had a hunger for expansion and they were willing to take resources from what they considered savages....so much has changed , India may have been able to enjoy a space programme without the British empire ever existing but you can bet your ass it would have been because of someone elses empire.

Are you judging from todays moral POV, or the historical one? There is a huge difference there.

About bringing civilisation to other parts of the world....would you accept being swallowed by China? Or Germany? Despite them willing to develop your industries?

Absolutely it's not, but here on a forum based on a WWII sim on a discussion about German wartime develpoment at that time?

Still does not justify why german innovations back then and there defense warrents such comparisons. Germany has been an innovative area right throughout it's history, with the printing press or the automobile as some prominent examples.

Here modesty means not 'bragging' or 'boasting' or other means of showing off particular attributes, to preserve ones modesty is to remain clothed or covered, I guess you believe the Brits have a tendency to brag about our higher moral stance with regards to the war etc, but we certainly don't brag about superior we are or crap like that, the British mentality is very much the 'plucky underdog' in that regard.

We also may have some cultural misunderstandings here. In Germany there is a lot of pride in achievements and knowledge and that is widely displayed. Lack of education or downplaying what you managed is rather frowned upon. That may be what you understand as "bragging".

That said, I never percieved or got the impression of "plucky undersdg" when it comes to the UK. It was an Empire, during the time of WW2 "the" dominant world power. I never understood the underdog mentality in the face of the massive overseas ressources the UK had at it's deposal. That is what the Germans thought at that time, and if you believe it or not, no German even in 1939 cheered when the war broke out, especially regarding the expiriences of WWI (UK Naval blokade caused huge famines in Germany during that period. Millions died and even more so when the 1918 flu pandemic hit)

[bongodriver]

Still, "berg" in connection with another native english word is rather odd.

isn't ice simply an anglicised version of eis?

Nope, "appreciated" would be the wrong word here for sure.

Appreciation is not always a positive acceptance but more a simple understanding of the way things are.

Avro is an agent Provocateur with a passion. Much bigger complexes over the war then you (or me) appear to show at times. The responses are mostly in kind.

However, the Versailles treaty was a humilation in more ways then most british realize. It was not just the financial conditions and lost territories, it also had to do with some very odd plebiscits in the east, rape on a massive scale during the occupation in the Rhineland by the French. The fact that Germany agreed to the Armistice based on Wilsons 14 point plan which was utterly trashed later in the negotiations. The fact that all war guilt was pushed on Germany, despite the Kaiser actually trying to attempt demobilisation in his letters with the Russian Csar. There are fair treates, and there are treaties especially aimed and kick an opponent already on the ground. This behaviour was expected from the French, not from the british.
The Versailles treaty was the latter and though I do not approve of the Nazis, I actually DO understand why people voted for them back then, also in connection with the Great Depression.

Ok but even if the treaty was a humiliation did it justify war? and why exactly did the Polish get hammered on that basis?
In times of depression a massive drive toward civil engineering could work just as well as military development....there was another option.

Are you judging from todays moral POV, or the historical one? There is a huge difference there.

Not sure......just my POV

About bringing civilisation to other parts of the world....would you accept being swallowed by China? Or Germany? Despite them willing to develop your industries?

Depends how good their 'fire water is'

Still does not justify why german innovations back then and there defense warrents such comparisons. Germany has been an innovative area right throughout it's history, with the printing press or the automobile as some prominent examples.

I'm surprised you missed my point, the V2 was an innovation no? but solely for the purpouse of war, and this is a forum about a period of war.
any innovation outside of periods of conflict have not been particularily remarkeable by comparison to other nations, what I mean to say is that every developed nation have invented and innovated something it's not a capability unique to Germany but it is accepted Germany have been in the top of the list.

We also may have some cultural misunderstandings here. In Germany there is a lot of pride in achievements and knowledge and that is widely displayed. Lack of education or downplaying what you managed is rather frowned upon. That may be what you understand as "bragging".

Yes....to a degree, it's less vulgar to brag about admirable qualities like hard work, but modesty is practically a virtue in the UK.

That said, I never percieved or got the impression of "plucky undersdg" when it comes to the UK

Well during WWII thats exactly what Britain was.

[tools4fools]

you will see that very little 'NEW' weight was added ahead of the cg

Disagree. Think logic.

If the engine would have mounted same way as the BMW, then it would have added 160kg in front of CoG.
It needs to be moved backward and have weight in the back, ohterwise you gonna have a shift in CoG forward. So some weight will have to be added in the back. Perfect balance, no need for anything else.
Not a single source supports your claim anyway.

Radinger and Schick, page 18

March 21, 1940, ...., and swept back outer wings for a shift of CoG due to heavy jet engines....

Before it ever had engines on the wing.

It mentions elsewhere, later in the development, that there was a problem with airflow over the inner wing and hence the sweep was continued.

About the V3, which got this inner sweep first:

this aircraft role in the test program was mainly high-speed trials and aerodynamic investigations (pressure deistribution, the influence of Mach number, etc)