Horton

[bongodriver]

you take some ppl and their inventions and make them the creators of the applications derived of those

No....I said Dunne invented the swept wing and just mentioned HP had the patent on the slats Messershmitt used, it seems you are the one making stuff up.

it is all about is brining new inventions together to really create something never seen before.

Neither swept wing or slats were that 'new', it's just nobody else was in such a hurry to design new things to rampage across the globe murdering people.

So, where is the jet fighter Dunne's created to actually make use of swept wings?

Dunnes work was research into stability not high speed flight.

Exactly what it said. You complain about the content of this thread and it not beeing interesting enough? Do not read it then. Or contribute a bit more constructivly. At least Ace, Tools and me put more into this thread then just ranting and offending.

Oh I am terribly sorry Mr Bewolf Sir......I didn't read the sign on the door that this was a closed club, yes constructive contributions like 'history is written by the winners blah blah', I shall strike my mention of the inventor of the swept wing J.W. Dunne as complete spam and historically innacurate and as for automatic slats.....well everybody knows anything automatic could never be a British design.

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by ACE-OF-ACES

You have that 180 out..

Allow me.. The premise that I am working from here is the history channel types of history that one sees being stated as true history is anything but..

And my goal is to point that out each and every time I see it come up.. For true histories sake

In that the history channel types of history, that sells, is to portray the Me262, Go229 and V2as something that appeared out of thin air. That is to say the history channel type of history gives those watching, who don't know any better, the impression that nobody in the world knew what a rocket was until a V2 hit a target.. Or that nobody knew what a jet was until the Me262 shot down a B17.. Or that nobody in the world knew what a flying wing was until the US captured the Go229 and that Northrop reversed engineered it to build the B2.

I have simply pointed out here that all these systems were build on previous work! That is to say they didn't appear out of thin air in Germany one day due to the worked of a German scientists nor was the technology passed onto the Germans via aliens

Wrong premise then, we had that before. There are no history channel kids here, ppl know "how" things develop. But if you go by this, I hope you also make sure in discussions that the Wright flyers or Bell also did not invent their stuff out of thin air.

And btw, The Go229 was not the first wing the Hortens did.

With that said

Robert Goddard was building rockets in the 20s, 30s and 40s
The US and UK had jet fighters in operation during WWII
Jack Northrop was building flying wings in the 20s, 30s, 40s and 50s

The UK had in the Meteor, which hardly surpassed conventional prop driven fighters of that time. The US had 4 pre production YP80ies in Italy that never saw any action. The P80 was a great design, but jet engines and later wingtip tanks aside, very orthodox.
The british had the Vampire, but it only got into service after WW2. Added to that, all these allied aircraft had centrifugal jet engines, probably better suited for fast production with WW2 technology, but ultimately a dead end.

So all this stuff (V2 rocket, Me262 fighter, Go229 Flying Wing) was done way before the Germans did it during WWII, as in it did not just appear one day out of thin air

You said that before, but I yet have to see your examples of allied ballistic missles, swept wing jet fighters and jet powered flying wings. Convince me.

About the only thing mentioned in this thread that was unique to one nation was the development and employment of an atomic bomb.. And you can bet your bottom dollar splinting atoms to make a bomb was a much bigger achievement than the natural progression of the technology mentioned above.

Funny. I thought your line of argument was that "nothing" comes out of thin air?
Then you may want to study history in regards to the nuclear development and the bomb itself a bit more thoroughly.

Double standarts in action.

[bongodriver]

all these allied aircraft had centrifugal jet engines, probably better suited for fast production with WW2 technology, but ultimately a dead end.

Not true, centrifugal compressors are very much alive and well, most small turbines have retained them because they are perfect for reducing size, there are a few turbofan engines that use centrifugal cores, quite a few turboprops for the same size reason, centrifugal compressors are less prone to surge.....not such a dead end, axial flow compressors simply reduce the size of the frontal face area to give the low profile desireable for sleek high speed designs but don't offer massive advantages in any other areas.

but I yet have to see your examples of allied ballistic missles, swept wing jet fighters and jet powered flying wings. Convince me.

Like I said, the rest of the world wasn't in a hurry for war.

[159th_Jester]

[video]

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

No....I said Dunne invented the swept wing and just mentioned HP had the patent on the slats Messershmitt used, it seems you are the one making stuff up.

What stuff do I make up?

Neither swept wing or slats were that 'new', it's just nobody else was in such a hurry to design new things to rampage across the globe murdering people.

True, the british had no need for that in India, Iraq and Africa when they came down on uprisings and rebellions against their empire. Or their bomber campaigns against civilians.
You want to continue this line of argument?

Dunnes work was research into stability not high speed flight.

So what is your point? Tools and Ace are talking swept wings in the high speed department.

Oh I am terribly sorry Mr Bewolf Sir......I didn't read the sign on the door that this was a closed club, yes constructive contributions like 'history is written by the winners blah blah', I shall strike my mention of the inventor of the swept wing J.W. Dunne as complete spam and historically innacurate and as for automatic slats.....well everybody knows anything automatic could never be a British design.

That is what WIki says about slats (funnily enough, I just wanted to check what british company invented the patent later bought by Messerschmitt to support your point)

Slats were first developed by Gustav Lachmann in 1918. A crash in August 1917, with a Rumpler C aeroplane on account of stalling caused the idea to be put in a concrete form, and a small wooden model was built in 1917 in Cologne. In 1918, Lachmann presented a patent for leading edge slats in Germany. However, the German patent office at first rejected it as the office did not believe in the possibility of increasing lift by dividing the wing.[4][5]

Independently of Lachmann, Handley-Page Ltd in Great Britain also developed the slotted wing as a way to postpone stall by reducing the turbulence over the wing at high angles of attack, and applied for a patent in 1919; to avoid a patent challenge, they reached an ownership agreement with Lachmann. That year a De Havilland D.H.9 was fitted with slats and flown.[6] Later a D.H.4 was modified as a monoplane with a large wing fitted with full span leading edge and back ailerons (ie what would later be called flaps) that could be deployed in conjunction with the leading edge slats to test improved low speed performance.[7] Several years later, having subsequently taken employment at the Handley-Page aircraft company, Lachmann was responsible for a number of aircraft designs, including the Handley Page Hampden.

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

Not true, centrifugal compressors are very much alive and well, most small turbines have retained them because they are perfect for reducing size, there are a few turbofan engines that use centrifugal cores, quite a few turboprops for the same size reason, centrifugal compressors are less prone to surge.....not such a dead end, axial flow compressors simply reduce the size of the frontal face area to give the low profile desireable for sleek high speed designs but don't offer massive advantages in any other areas.

Let me specify. Dead end for high performance fighter aircraft.

Like I said, the rest of the world wasn't in a hurry for war.

No? The Russians and the Japanese had quite some fun before WW2 in this regard.
Or do you, in typical anglo saxon manner, consider Britian "the rest of the world"?

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Wrong premise then, we had that before. There are no history channel kids here, ppl know "how" things develop.

Disagree 100%

But you are welcome to your opinion! S!

[bongodriver]

What stuff do I make up?

In that you take some ppl and their inventions and make them the creators of the applications derived of those

This.

True, the british had no need for that in India, Iraq and Africa when they came down on uprisings and rebellions against their empire. Or their bomber campaigns against civilians.
You want to continue this line of argument?

Yeah those awfull Brits, if only they had followed the example of the other colonising Nations in the days of colonialism which was from a completely different age with different moralities, still the Jerries came along and showed us how it 'should' be done in a typically efficient way.

So what is your point? Tools and Ace are talking swept wings in the high speed department.

I'm not making a point, you were the one that asked why dunne didn't make a high speed swept wing.

That is what WIki says about slats (funnily enough, I just wanted to check what british company invented the patent later bought by Messerschmitt to support your point)

I hope you paid attention tho the fact I never said slats were a British invention, I merely mentioned Messershmitts slats were a HP patent.

[ATAG_Dutch]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

typical anglo saxon manner

Sorry to butt in, but yes. That's our Germanic invader's influences and came after our Roman invader's influences. The French invader's influences only came about later, in around erm..1066 I think.

Edit: Forgot to mention the Scandinavian invader's influences which were spread throughout most of that period. Sorry.

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Dutch

Sorry to butt in, but yes. That's our Germanic invader's influences and came after our Roman invader's influences. The French invader's influences only came about later, in around erm..1066 I think.

touché