Horton

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

isn't ice simply an anglicised version of eis?

Bah, I give up ; )

Ok but even if the treaty was a humiliation did it justify war? and why exactly did the Polish get hammered on that basis?
In times of depression a massive drive toward civil engineering could work just as well as military development....there was another option.

Most certainly not.
As in regards to german polish interwar history, just some of the more important bullet points.

-Access to East Prussia (cut off from Germany after WWI). The Weimar Republic made several proposals, all rejected.
-Attempts by polish nationalists to attack Germany after WWI to gain even more land
-Mistreatment of german nationals that were left in now polish areas. (Never saw any real sources over this, though)
-Some very odd plebiscits in the Region of Krakow. The result was 60-40 in favor of staying in Germany, instead the region was just split 60-40.
-The situation around the Free City of Danzig, which was under official supervision by the league of nations, but practically under polish rule.

During the Weimar Republic days, these issues led to a lot of tensions and a gradual build up of bitterness and almost hate towards the Poles, which probably explains the treatment of Poland in WW2.

(note: "explains", not "justifies")

The Poles probably have their own side of the story, the whole topic is only very sparsley covered in Germany, I yet have to find a comprehensive and encompassing source.

In regards to engeneering, absolutely. During that time period the autobahns were built, for example. Massive infrastructure all over the country took place. Unluckily the folks in power did not deem that enough and had their own ideas.

I'm surprised you missed my point, the V2 was an innovation no? but solely for the purpouse of war, and this is a forum about a period of war.
any innovation outside of periods of conflict have not been particularily remarkeable by comparison to other nations, what I mean to say is that every developed nation have invented and innovated something it's not a capability unique to Germany but it is accepted Germany have been in the top of the list.

For von Braun it was a step towards spaceflight. He wilingly sold his soul to achieve that. Agreed to the rest of your post but one fact.

Everybody accepts the americans inveting the airplane, the british the steam engine, juust as a couiple examples. But when it comes to german inventions the debates are endless.

Yes....to a degree, it's less vulgar to brag about admirable qualities like hard work, but modesty is practically a virtue in the UK.

Nothing wrong with that. Just different.

Well during WWII thats exactly what Britain was.

I dare say that is what Britian did become eventually. It was not the case in 1939 when Germany faced the most powerful army on the continent, the French, and the British Empire at the climax of it's power.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by tools4fools

Think logic.

Maybe another picture will help you see what I am saying?

In that the top view picture I showed you before appears to have confused you a little

So allow me to post a side view of the BMW P.3302 vs Jumo 004 (see attached)

Looking at the attached picture you can see I lined up the wings..

From the picture you can see the Jumo and BMW both start at the same point ahead of the cg.
From the picture you can see the Jumo extends out behind the cg much further than the BMW.

That is that 'red' area I showed in my last drawing

This additional mass that extends out behind the cg will have to be compensated for to maintain the cg.

And just to be crystal clear here.. I am not saying this is the reason the inner wing was swept forward! All I am saying is if this is the reason, it agrees with what STORMBIRDS said or didn't say, as in it could explain why STORMBIRDS did NOT come out on record and say the reason the inner wing was swept forward was to take advantage of swept wing theory

Hope that helps!

[tools4fools]

Maybe another picture will help you see what I am saying?

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachm...5&d=1339124183

It clearly shows JUMO 004 with inner wing not swept.

I posted this image above btw.

As explained that if you put additional weight on the plane and you put it ALL forward you have a shift CoG forward.
So you will need to put some of that extra weight behind as well, just logic.
Anbd looking at the image you posted you will see that the Jumo is much fatter engine as well and has much more bits and pieces in front - it does put a lot of additional weight in front as well.
You try to make it look like only weight in the rear was added, which is false.

The books I quoted above say in their short introcductions the same as Stormbirds does - wings swept to correct CoG.
In their short overviews.
In their detailed development history they state 'inner wings' for CoG early in development and inner wings for said aerodynamic problems with airflow later, much later in development, using V3 which was used for high speed testing, with Jumo 004 already, as seen on the link posted above.

The reason why Stormbirds does not go into he detail is likely that they write about 'plagiarism' in that article - and not about developmnt history.
++++

[Crumpp]

Lot of nonsense in this thread.

The German contributions to swept wing research:

1) German AVA/LFA/DVL wind-tunnel data gave proof in 1940
that Busemann’s 1935 supersonic swept-wing theory is also applicable
for subsonic compressibility effects.
2) The beginnings of area ruling can be traced back to Junkers’
patent in 1943.
3) Artificial stability (philosophy, Heinkel; theory, Fischel, 1940)
was first demonstrated by DVL’s rate gyro controlled yaw damper
(1944).
4) The existence of LFAVoelkenrode came as a complete surprise
to the Americans and British after WWII.
5) Only after von Karman and his scientific advisory team arrived
in Germany was the totality of the German aeronautical research and
design effort revealed.
6) German swept-wing wind-tunnel data dispelled U.S. doubts
regarding the validity of R. T. Jones’ theoretical work.
7) To preserve that scientific picture of LFA and AVA, every
hardware and technical data were boxed up and shipped off mainly
to Wright Field and to Bedford, United Kingdom.
Fairly extensive German wind-tunnel data were used for future
swept-wing designs in the United States, Russia, United Kingdom,
France, and Sweden.

[Crumpp]

It is clear from the literature and available data, that Germany has led the development of the flying wing concept. The work of Lillienthal, Lippish, and the Horten brothers is impressive by all measures. The contributions of the English, Dunne and Hill, while not as diverse as the German influence is extremely notewothy in the area of stability and control. Contributions by Burnelli and Northrop of the United States focused on the maturation and commercial development of the flying wing concept.

The German pioneers did contribute to Northrop's flying wing designs.

[Crumpp]

Me 262 CG blah blah blah

The aerodynamic center moves under compressibility increasing the stability margin.

Two common methods of handling this are:

1. Add drag to slow the aircraft down below compressibility
2. If the CG is within limits<for that condition>, the aircraft will recover.

If you want to make the elevator effective enough to recover the aircraft, it must not violate the forward CG.

The forward CG limits defines the point you can raise the nose.

Under compressibility, behind the normal shock, the dynamic pressure is greatly reduced and the flow subsonic.

I am sure Mtt was aware of this fact.

[Crumpp]

What happenend to your reply, Tagert?

If the Germans fully understood swept wing theory..

Nobody fully understood swept wing theory until after the war. As the history notes, even Jones work in the United States was viewed with skeptism and far from mainstream.

Nobody fully understood the transonic and supersonic realms either.

German swept-wing wind-tunnel data dispelled U.S. doubts
regarding the validity of R. T. Jones’ theoretical work.

What the Germans were, is far ahead of anyone else during the war. Their research became the foundation others like Northrop built upon.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by tools4fools

Maybe another picture will help you see what I am saying?

It clearly shows JUMO 004 with inner wing not swept.

I posted this image above btw.

It appears you missed my post where I explained there is more than one way to correct the cg..

So allow me to quote myself, i.e.

Originally Posted by ACE-Of-ACES

Which means the Germans would have had to add more weight (mass) in front of the cg to maintain the cg

This can be done in several ways

1) Add ballast
2) Change the design (shape) of the plane to add more mass forward

Adding ballast is a 'fudge' and is to be avoided, in that it just adds weight. Where as increasing the wing area adds weight, but at the same time increases lift to offset the extra weight of the heavier than expected engines.

With that said it should be clear that your 'conclusion' is in error..

That being the cg was not affected, by the BMW to Jumo engine swap, because the inner wing was not swept..

Because they could have simply corrected the cg by adding mass installing internal ballast forward of the cg instead of adding mass forward of the cg by sweeping the inner wing forward.

Which is pretty standard stuff that is done all the time.. If I recall correctly, the Bf109 had a 60lb ballast weight installed rear of the cg to compensate for the heavier engines.

As I noted, it is not the optimal way of doing things, but it is an 'easy' way of doing what has to be done.

In that simple physics dictates they would have to correct the cg due to the extra mass of the Jumo behind the cg one way or another

But I digress

As to the 'reason' why the inner wings were swept forward..

I just brought up the possibility that the inner wings were swept as part of the cg correction process.. As in the fillets would add more weight forward of the cg. That and doing it for that 'reason' would agree with what STORMBIRDS said about the 'reason' the wings were swept, i.e. to correct the cg due to the heavier than expected engines.

On that note, up to now you have admitted that the outer wings were swept to correct the cg, but you contend that the 'reason' the inner wings were swept forward was to take advantage of swept wing theory..

Even though most if not all agree that 18 degree sweep is too small to achieve any significant advantage in increasing the critical Mach number..

Which begs the question..

If the Germans fully understood swept wing theory..

Why would they go to all the trouble of sweeping the inner wings forward 18 degree is they knew in advance it would not increase the critical Mach number?

Which did not make any sense to me, so I started doing a little more research and I actually found the 'reason' the Germans swept the inner wings forward..

Granted I still consider STORMBIRDS the.. how did you say it? Qualified Authorities on the subject of the Me262

But as you know, for some reason, they had nothing to say with regards to the 'reason' the inner wings were swept forward, it is almost as if they went out of their way to say nothing. All we know for sure is that when given the chance to give the Germans credit for taking advantage of swept wing theory, they said nothing but to confirm that the outer wings were swept to correct the cg.

But I digress

During my research I did find a source that noted the 'reason' the inner wings were swept forward..

And guess what!

It had nothing to do with the cg or swept wing theory!

http://naziscienceliveson.devhub.com...or-compromise/

Originally Posted by Jenkins, Dennis R.

The third prototype was the first Me 262 to fly on jet power alone, taking off on 18 July 1942 with two pre-production Jumo 004A-0 engines. The 12-minute flight reached an altitude of just over 6,000 feet and a speed of 375 mph. A second flight later the same day lasted 13 minutes and reached 11,000 feet and 450 mph. One problem that was immediately evident was that, in a bank, the airflow broke away early from the wing center section. A small fillet was added between the fuselage and engine nacelle, increasing the root chord and continuing the leading-edge sweep angle of the outer panels across the entire center section. This completed the change necessary to give the appearance of a truly swept wing.

So to sum it up..

• The outer wings were swept to correct the cg.

• The inner wings were swept to correct the airflow separation.

Neither of which were done to take advantage of swept wing theory

Hope that helps! S!

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Nobody fully understood swept wing theory until after the war.

Bingo!

Now maybe tools will belive me?

[Crumpp]

Neither of which were done to take advantage of swept wing theory

That is not correct. It is impossible to argue that Mtt was not aware of swept wing theory.

By 1945 the entire German aircraft industry had a multitude of experimental swept wing aircraft and missile designs in a final realization phase. Also, a Me 262 had been retrofitted with a 35 degree arrow wing and was ready for first flight. A further (Me 262 HG II) version with 45 degrees sweepback was under final construction at the end of WW II.

The outer wings were swept to correct the cg.

Probably as result of the swept wing research and compressibility effects on the CG......

Mtt was obviously interested in adding futher sweep to the design.