Horton

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by tools4fools

If you think just because those who lost the war still exist today as nations the history will be 'accurate' and 'neutral' because of that then I think you are wrong. Terribly wrong.

Your still missing my point..

As I pointed out that 'old' saying is true of 'old' types of warfare where the winners killed off all of the losers, thus the ONLY people left to write the history were the winners.

Where as with modern warfare, as in the case of WWII, the countries like German and Japan still exist and thus have a say in what is written and thus affect history and thus history is NOT written by the winners as the old saying goes.. But also written by the losers

Where I think your confused is that you 'think' I am saying there will be no disagreements in what is written.. Far from!

Since both the winners and the losers still exist, than both accounts (read both sides of the coin) are being 'written' and thus both accounts are documented for 'history'

All that is left is for you to decided, based on what is written vs. what you have read to decided which of the two accounts are 'true'

A choice you didn't get in the 'old' days when the 'winners' killed off all of the 'losers' such that only the 'winners' wrote the history and thus the basis of the 'old' saying

Originally Posted by tools4fools

By who? Are those 'confirmed authorities' on the subject?

Again, don't take my word for it that the wings of the Me262 were swept to correct the cg! And that the 18 deg was too too small to achieve any significant advantage in increasing the critical Mach number. But since you seem to be unable or unwilling to do the research allow me..

Now, before I provide you the data..

Would you agree that the folks over at STORMBIRDS.COM are..

how did you say it?

'CONFIRMED AUTHORITIES' on the subject of the Me262?

You know the folks that build reproductions of the Me262 that were so good that messerschmitt provided them continuation serial numbers..

Well Ill just assume you do agree that they are..

how did you say it?

'CONFIRMED AUTHORITIES' on the subject of the Me262!

In that only a ninny would try and argue that they are NOT!

With that said, here is what STORMBIRDS.COM had to say about the REASON the Me262 went from STRAIGHT wings to SWEPT wings

http://www.stormbirds.com/schwalbe/plagiarism/plag.htm
it is true (as some writers seem intent on repeating loudly and often) that the Me 262s swept wing design was due to the need to adjust the center of gravity for the aircraft

Enjoy!

PS your welcome!

[tools4fools]

While it is true (as some writers seem intent on repeating loudly and often) that the Me 262s swept wing design was due to the need to adjust the center of gravity for the aircraft, it is also true that the Germans were aware of the advantages of the swept wing since the 30s!

Great. Thanks for posting this link.
And since then the first part has been repeated loudly on often - to downplay the achievement of the design of the 262.

Well, we can start by ascertaining that the various high - speed trials with the Me 262 proved without a doubt the advantage of the swept wing over the straight wing

Which is often downplayed with the old " the production Me 262 had a leading edge sweep of only 18.5°, too slight to achieve any significant advantage in increasing the critical Mach number" argument which you read all over.

It means exactly what the guys of Sturmvogel say - that the 18.5° sweep does have a advantage over straight wings - just not as big if the wing sweep would have been bigger.
As usual it is downplayed.
Interesting to note is that planes like the A320 and B737 have 25 degrees swept wings and top speeds under 900km/h and not the "ideal" 35 degrees for faster speeds.

It is also true that design aesthetics by the design team, irrespective of any initial misgivings about practicality, influenced the wing shape of the 262.

So there were other aspects for the swept wing and INITIAL misgivings about practicality. Means some when the practically was discovered...


Now about the inner wing sweep, which was not done to correct for CoG:

Wiki has this:

"the trailing edge of the mid-section of the wing remained unswept. Based on data from the AVA Göttingen and wind tunnel results, the middle section's leading edge was later swept to the same angle as the outer panels."

...they did wind tunnel tests...and maybe because of that the wing sweep was continued to the inner leading edge? Not because of CoG as we have seen.
Maybe they knew they were on something by the time they changed the inner wing leading edge?

Add to this that Ludwig Boelkow, designer of the 262, was certainly aware of the 1939 research on swept wing in the wind tunnel of AVA Goettigen.
And the stall problems associated with a swept wing were known as well - and a possible solution, slats.

Looking at all of this it is a bit surprising that they choose swept wing only to correct CoG - knowing the stall problems of such a wing which they knew could be overcome with slats.
Sounds like a hell of a difficult solution when they just could have repositioned the wing.

So question is why did they go the difficult way? With a designer that knew about the advantages of swept wings for high speed?

The real surprise then is why was this knowledge of the swept wing not taken advantage of worldwide before it was experimentally proven on the Me 262.

It is a generally well known fact that German designs for advanced jet aircraft (and rockets, for that matter) influenced postwar aircraft development to varying degrees.

Which is exactly what you are trying to downplay.

A4/V2 was nothing...just a copy; on top wasn't worth to bother with that technology (but worth to send 600 bombers over and get the design team).
Me 262 was nothing...just an accident.
++++

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by tools4fools

Great. Thanks for posting this link.

No problem!

Just glad I could help!

And glad that you now understand the reason why the Me262 had swept wings

That being to correct the cg

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by ACE-OF-ACES

No problem!

Just glad I could help!

And glad that you now understand the reason why the Me262 had swept wings

That being to correct the cg

tsk, that's a load of baloney, everybody knows that it was done because they put fluorine in their water and the engineers had a calcified fornix that didn't allow them to see in a 6 dimensional view

[tools4fools]

That being to correct the cg

Be happy to read only what you like - and ignore everything else.
Black and white thinking makes life much easier.

Just ignore all the grey in between.
++++

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by tools4fools

Be happy to read only what you like - and ignore everything else.
Black and white thinking makes life much easier.

Just ignore all the grey in between.
++++

Sorry, you lost me there, not sure what it is your trying to say..

So allow me to ask you a question to try and clear this up..

Are you NOW saying that the folks at STORMBIRDS.COM are NOT 'CONFIRMED AUTHORITIES' on the subject of the Me262?

And that they are uninformed, or worse yet, where lying when they stated that it is true, that the initialy design of the Me262 had strait wings, and that the reason they swept the wings back was to correct the cg to account for the heavier than expected engines

Is that what your trying to say?

[raaaid]

well leaned wings have the adavnatage of having more effective surface with less used surface

i think they copied nature:

[tools4fools]

Is that what your trying to say?

No read what I wrote. Just read it.
And read all the other quotes from that site. Just read those as well instead of singling out one that fits your thinking and then "keep on repeating loud and proudly'.

+++++

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by tools4fools

No read what I wrote. Just read it.

I did read it and as I pointed out.. you lost me.

We were talking about the reason the wings were swept on the Me262..

At some point in the conversation you stated that the reason was NOT confirmed..

To which I responded the reason was confirmed..

To which you said (asked) the following

Originally Posted by tools4fools

By who? Are those 'confirmed authorities' on the subject?

At that point I realized you were not going to take my word for it, and that you required and experts opinion (what you called confirmed authorities) before you would belive it.

That is when I provided you the statement from STORMBRIDS (aka experts aka confirmed authorities) who agreed with what I said.

So that is where we were.. Not sure what 'tangent' topic your going off on now, all I ask is that before you do.. Let finish this point to make sure we are on the same sheet of music before we proceed.. Because there really is no reason to move forward if we have not established this simple point.

With that said, allow me to present to you the same question I ask you in the form of a YES or NO question.

Hopefully that will help me understand what your trying to say..

Here we go..

Are you saying the folks at STORMBIRDS are WRONG or LYING when they said that it is TRUE that the initial Me262 design consisted of STRAIGHT wings and that the reason the wings were SWEPT back was to correct the cg due to the heavier than expected jet engines

Yes or No?

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by tools4fools

Sorry, but that's what you asked. Not unique aspects but any.

I only added the word in 'unique' in my last post to you for clarification..

In that you were listing (counting) Me262 design aspects that other planes already had..

But the question at hand was what design aspects of the Me262 were used in post war fighter jets..

As in what did the Me262 do that no one else was not already doing during the war..

Which stemmed from the 'myth' that the Me262 was the first jet fighter design with the intent of making use of swept wing 'technologies'

But as we now know, the wings on the Me262 were NOT swept with the intend of making use of swept wing technology, the wings were swept to correct the cg

The purpose of pointing that out is that once you remove that FACT.. You would be hard pressed to find any 'unique' design aspects of the Me262 that were used in post war JET FIGHTER designs.

With that in mind..

That is why I found it odd that you would list/count 'jet engines' as a 'unique' design aspect of the Me262 that was used in post war JET FIGHTER designs

Because the USA and Brits both produced jet fighters during WWII that saw service in WWII, thus the jet engine can NOT be listed/counted as a 'unique' design aspect of the Me262 that was use in post war JET FIGHTER designs.

Originally Posted by tools4fools

So jet engines it is and swept wings.

As noted above, jet engines were not unique to the Me262, and the swept wings were not an intentional design aspect with the purpose of taking advantage of swept wing technology. Thus neither can be listed/counted as Me262 design aspects that were used in post war JET FIGHTER designs.

Originally Posted by tools4fools

Because that what it was the first swept wing jet fighter in combat service.

It was the first jet fighter in service, whose initial design included straight wings, but was later changed to correct the cg. In short, it was dumb luck that it just so happened that sweeping the wings to correct the cg also improved the high speed characteristics. To make an analogy using the old reese's peanut butter cup commercials.. Where it was dumb luck that a guy with a jar of peanut butter ran into a guy with a chocolate candy bar.

Originally Posted by tools4fools

It don't even matter for what reason it was.

It does when your trying to dispel the myth that the Me262 was the first 'intentionally' swept wing jet fighter design. As I pointed out before, the history channel types belive that, and the only way to belive that is to belive the Germans were YEARS ahead of everyone else.. Which they would have to be for the Me262 to be the first 'intentionally' swept wing jet fighter design. But as we now know the wings were swept to correct the cg, thus the Germans were not as advanced as the history channel would 'lead' people into thinking and thus 'feeding' on the notion that 'sells' that the Germans were some sort of supermen or being assisted by aliean from outer space.

Originally Posted by tools4fools

High speed trial proved the advantage of...
So latest when the thing flew they knew.

Agreed

Just as the guy eating chocolate with peanut butter knew and thus proved the advantage of the combination of the two

Originally Posted by tools4fools

But then there's still the question of the inner wing.

Agreed

There is no proof as to why the inner wing was swept..

But if I had to guess, I would suspect it had something to do with what STORMBIRDS said.. i.e.

Originally Posted by STORMBIRDS

It is also true that design aesthetics by the design team, irrespective of any initial misgivings about practicality, influenced the wing shape of the 262.

Aesthetics..

As in it just looked better to do it that way

Originally Posted by tools4fools

V2, first ballistic missile, ahead of its time

Not really..

In that it was all done before by Robert Goddard

In that even Von Baurn admitted he used many of Robert Goddard's rocket designs from the 20s and 30s in the construction of the V2

Originally Posted by tools4fools

Me 262, first swept wing jet fighter in service, ahead of its time

But not the first intentionally swept wing fighter design

Big difference!


In summary

The history channel type of history that sells is to give the impression that the Me262 showed up out of no where and caught the allies by surprise.

Which was NOT the case

The only 'unique' thing about the Me262 was the swept wings.. Unfortunatly the history channel type of history that sells gives the impression that the swept wings were by design to take advantage of swept wing technology.

Which was NOT the case

As a mater of fact just about every nation involved in WWII..

• Designed a jet fighter before the end of the war

• Prototype a jet fighter before the end of the war

• Produced a jet fighter before the end of the war

• Employed a jet fighter before the end of the war

Therefore one can NOT be safe in saying the Me262 was the sole inspiration of all post WWII jet fighter designs.

With that said..

Maybe it would help you understand my point of view if I gave you an example of a truly unique WWII weapon that did influence the world post WWII?

Take the ABOMB for example

Only one nation involved in WWII..

• Designed an atomic bomb before the end of the war

• Prototype an atomic bomb before the end of the war

• Produced an atomic bomb before the end of the war

• Employed an atomic bomb before the end of the war

Therefore one can be safe in saying the ABOMB was the sole inspiration of all post WWII ABOMB designs.

I hope that helps you understand my point of view! S!