Horton

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by tools4fools

If you think just because those who lost the war still exist today as nations the history will be 'accurate' and 'neutral' because of that then I think you are wrong. Terribly wrong.

Your still missing my point..

As I pointed out that 'old' saying is true of 'old' types of warfare where the winners killed off all of the losers, thus the ONLY people left to write the history were the winners.

Where as with modern warfare, as in the case of WWII, the countries like German and Japan still exist and thus have a say in what is written and thus affect history and thus history is NOT written by the winners as the old saying goes.. But also written by the losers

Where I think your confused is that you 'think' I am saying there will be no disagreements in what is written.. Far from!

Since both the winners and the losers still exist, than both accounts (read both sides of the coin) are being 'written' and thus both accounts are documented for 'history'

All that is left is for you to decided, based on what is written vs. what you have read to decided which of the two accounts are 'true'

A choice you didn't get in the 'old' days when the 'winners' killed off all of the 'losers' such that only the 'winners' wrote the history and thus the basis of the 'old' saying

Originally Posted by tools4fools

By who? Are those 'confirmed authorities' on the subject?

Again, don't take my word for it that the wings of the Me262 were swept to correct the cg! And that the 18 deg was too too small to achieve any significant advantage in increasing the critical Mach number. But since you seem to be unable or unwilling to do the research allow me..

Now, before I provide you the data..

Would you agree that the folks over at STORMBIRDS.COM are..

how did you say it?

'CONFIRMED AUTHORITIES' on the subject of the Me262?

You know the folks that build reproductions of the Me262 that were so good that messerschmitt provided them continuation serial numbers..

Well Ill just assume you do agree that they are..

how did you say it?

'CONFIRMED AUTHORITIES' on the subject of the Me262!

In that only a ninny would try and argue that they are NOT!

With that said, here is what STORMBIRDS.COM had to say about the REASON the Me262 went from STRAIGHT wings to SWEPT wings

http://www.stormbirds.com/schwalbe/plagiarism/plag.htm
it is true (as some writers seem intent on repeating loudly and often) that the Me 262s swept wing design was due to the need to adjust the center of gravity for the aircraft

Enjoy!

PS your welcome!

[tools4fools]

While it is true (as some writers seem intent on repeating loudly and often) that the Me 262s swept wing design was due to the need to adjust the center of gravity for the aircraft, it is also true that the Germans were aware of the advantages of the swept wing since the 30s!

Great. Thanks for posting this link.
And since then the first part has been repeated loudly on often - to downplay the achievement of the design of the 262.

Well, we can start by ascertaining that the various high - speed trials with the Me 262 proved without a doubt the advantage of the swept wing over the straight wing

Which is often downplayed with the old " the production Me 262 had a leading edge sweep of only 18.5°, too slight to achieve any significant advantage in increasing the critical Mach number" argument which you read all over.

It means exactly what the guys of Sturmvogel say - that the 18.5° sweep does have a advantage over straight wings - just not as big if the wing sweep would have been bigger.
As usual it is downplayed.
Interesting to note is that planes like the A320 and B737 have 25 degrees swept wings and top speeds under 900km/h and not the "ideal" 35 degrees for faster speeds.

It is also true that design aesthetics by the design team, irrespective of any initial misgivings about practicality, influenced the wing shape of the 262.

So there were other aspects for the swept wing and INITIAL misgivings about practicality. Means some when the practically was discovered...


Now about the inner wing sweep, which was not done to correct for CoG:

Wiki has this:

"the trailing edge of the mid-section of the wing remained unswept. Based on data from the AVA Göttingen and wind tunnel results, the middle section's leading edge was later swept to the same angle as the outer panels."

...they did wind tunnel tests...and maybe because of that the wing sweep was continued to the inner leading edge? Not because of CoG as we have seen.
Maybe they knew they were on something by the time they changed the inner wing leading edge?

Add to this that Ludwig Boelkow, designer of the 262, was certainly aware of the 1939 research on swept wing in the wind tunnel of AVA Goettigen.
And the stall problems associated with a swept wing were known as well - and a possible solution, slats.

Looking at all of this it is a bit surprising that they choose swept wing only to correct CoG - knowing the stall problems of such a wing which they knew could be overcome with slats.
Sounds like a hell of a difficult solution when they just could have repositioned the wing.

So question is why did they go the difficult way? With a designer that knew about the advantages of swept wings for high speed?

The real surprise then is why was this knowledge of the swept wing not taken advantage of worldwide before it was experimentally proven on the Me 262.

It is a generally well known fact that German designs for advanced jet aircraft (and rockets, for that matter) influenced postwar aircraft development to varying degrees.

Which is exactly what you are trying to downplay.

A4/V2 was nothing...just a copy; on top wasn't worth to bother with that technology (but worth to send 600 bombers over and get the design team).
Me 262 was nothing...just an accident.
++++

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by tools4fools

Great. Thanks for posting this link.

No problem!

Just glad I could help!

And glad that you now understand the reason why the Me262 had swept wings

That being to correct the cg

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by ACE-OF-ACES

No problem!

Just glad I could help!

And glad that you now understand the reason why the Me262 had swept wings

That being to correct the cg

tsk, that's a load of baloney, everybody knows that it was done because they put fluorine in their water and the engineers had a calcified fornix that didn't allow them to see in a 6 dimensional view

[MB_Avro_UK]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

yeah, frankly I think that the choices for construction material for the Horten were based mainly on these aspects:

1) scarce raw materials.
2) lightweight construction
3) easier and cheaper to build

As you said there's no evidence to support the research in that anti-radar technology direction, if anything because if used properly the jets undoubtedly had a tactical advantage.

Agreed. There are those who say that the Dh Mosquito was made of wood to reduce it's radar profile. No. It was made of wood for other reasons.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

[fruitbat]

Originally Posted by MB_Avro_UK

No. It was made of wood for other reasons.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

got wood?

hur hur hur.....

[addman]

Personally, I have to say that it was one of the crappiest documentaries I've ever seen. Except for the "dramatization" parts which looked somewhat authentic. It was soooo obvious they were just making a museum replica but then NE asked if they could make an angled "documentary" about the "nazi stealth fighter", lol on that one BTW. IMO, the ho229 had nothing to do with stealth. It was a jet interceptor, that's it. Made out of wood because it was one of the few raw materials that was still plentiful for yarn old German war industry. Attacking British home chain?!?!?!!? With it's 30mm cannons?!?!!?! Not even Hitler and Göring put together was that stupid *insert Cpt.Picard facepalming here*. Better go read a book so my brain stops degrading.....too quickly.

[tools4fools]

That being to correct the cg

Be happy to read only what you like - and ignore everything else.
Black and white thinking makes life much easier.

Just ignore all the grey in between.
++++

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by tools4fools

Be happy to read only what you like - and ignore everything else.
Black and white thinking makes life much easier.

Just ignore all the grey in between.
++++

Sorry, you lost me there, not sure what it is your trying to say..

So allow me to ask you a question to try and clear this up..

Are you NOW saying that the folks at STORMBIRDS.COM are NOT 'CONFIRMED AUTHORITIES' on the subject of the Me262?

And that they are uninformed, or worse yet, where lying when they stated that it is true, that the initialy design of the Me262 had strait wings, and that the reason they swept the wings back was to correct the cg to account for the heavier than expected engines

Is that what your trying to say?

[raaaid]

well leaned wings have the adavnatage of having more effective surface with less used surface

i think they copied nature: