Suddenly Spit IIa on all the servers?

[Ze-Jamz]

Originally Posted by ChrisDNT

You're surprised ?

Just wait for the Focke Wulf 190 A being dominated by the Spit V

Not if they are correctly modeled pal ..

I dunno, maybe the Devs know something we dont cuz im sure having at least correct FM's is as important as colour?

[JG53Frankyboy]

i know why i fly mostly bombers online (in the past in IL2 and now in CoD). I can stay away from these "pis.sing contests"

and yes, i fly the Blenheim too, most times actually............



one of the most difficult things to do for a developer, making a historical combat flightsim, has to be to collect all the performance datas and select wich one to choose i guess !!
Making the 3D models is most propably childsplay in comparison

[Madfish]

Originally Posted by Jaws2002

So tell me, how do you know who's who in a full real server (no icons)? You can easily tell the difference between a spit and a 109. If you do what you want, then you can't fly without those bright red and blue icons.

So you can tell the difference can you? Well, the pilots in the past couldn't tell the difference of a A6M Zero and a P40 and many lives where lost because of it. The 109 and the Spit is one thing - but it's not the only 2 planes the world ever saw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeYLXZC63zw

But yes, I admit that we need to figure a way out to handle this. But there will be ways.
Skins for example. Red and blue ones. It works great in other team based games but I admit it comes with issues: hiding would be harder.
There is the possibility of fading skins though. Skins that change color depending on distance basically.
Also regarding icons: yes, the old style icons are wrong but what if it were an identification icon depending on real vision. That would only show up if close enough and if you really see the plane unobstructed. e.g. canope or outside the screen would not display it?
Lastly there is also an option to select a skin and chose different airplane characteristics.

And of course there is always the option of people just going to regular servers if they don't have a problem with the FM or anything.

Keep one thing in mind though. There is a game coming up that WILL have a solution. It's world of planes it it will most likely do it similar to World of Tanks. And no, I don't like the game but I want IL-2 to become a great place for pilots that like WW2. However, with CEM and all this bickering about FM, balance and so on this WON'T happen. Only for freaks but not average new pilots interested in the genre.
This community needs to let go of some ideals of the past if it want's the genre to stay alive I believe.




This said let me say somehting about realism.
When people expect their planes to have the best fuel, ammunition, always spawn it in perfect condition with no material wear or bad service whatsoever, when they sit in front of their monitors, fed and eating great food, being in perfect health and rested. Not having family issues because of the war, being in a moral fight with themselves, being scared up there because they are about to lose their lives, being sad because they see great friends and comrades die, hearing them scream in pain over the voice com when going down...

Also we all are aces, or potential ones. There is always the respawn button and we know the strengths and weaknesses of our opponents perfectly. The pilots back then didn't, or barely. Yet we still demand the FM to be perfect? So we can exploit those very weaknesses we now know planes had? Ridiculous.
Do you seriously think this is realistic and honorable dogfighting? To me it's more like mudfighting on the lowest level.

On top of that there were orders. For example Görings legendary decision to escort bombers at close range, essentially rendering the ME109 useless and making it a sitting duck. Do you know how many 109s were lost because of that?

Or the british flying in line formations, totally ridiculous and some pilots even ignored the order as far as I know.

That said I cannot imagine how people go on about their realism. We CANNOT get realism. We cannot re-create all this. Only during co-op missions and full organized historic wars. This could be done but it's hard. It's not what dogfight servers are about though. Also a true dogfighter would want his opponent to be equal.




Eventually I'll make a write up of this and post it in general. Also please don't be offended. This is not just adressing you but everyone. It's also sounding rude but that is not the intention.
My point is simply that all this talk about FM and so on is far from being historic and that it turns people away from the game only attracting very few freaks. I'm a little scared that the upcoming World of Planes will turn out to be a competitor just because it makes dogfighting easy to get into and "fair and balanced". I want this sim to turn out way better. Maybe it's time to start thinking and discussing options that could improve simple dogfighting in this sim. If all the energy wasted on bringing up historic documents etc. pointing out flaws in your opponents plane would be used for trying to make dogfighting better in this game I'm sure we could come up with something.

[Winger]

Originally Posted by esmiol

most of the people who cry...need to learn to fly with theur plane...

you don't fly the same way in all circonstance... don't blame the plane but the pilot!

There are people on that that would fit. I am definately not one of them.

Winger

[ATAG_Dutch]

Originally Posted by Ze-Jamz

Also you do have a Medium between the 2 mate..

Not sure what you mean by a medium between the two Jamz, but I've got the two speed prop Mk1 taking 3m 0s to 5000ft due to weight of new metal 2-speed prop plus ballast in the rear, but then getting to 10,000 in 5m 30s as it gets into it's stride. So only 2m 30s for the next 5000ft.

The top speed at 10,000 is the same as the fixed pitch wooden prop at 328mph, so 2mph faster than MkII at this alt!

[Ze-Jamz]

Originally Posted by Madfish

So you can tell the difference can you? Well, the pilots in the past couldn't tell the difference of a A6M Zero and a P40 and many lives where lost because of it. The 109 and the Spit is one thing - but it's not the only 2 planes the world ever saw.

But yes, I admit that we need to figure a way out to handle this. But there will be ways.
Skins for example. Red and blue ones. It works great in other team based games but I admit it comes with issues: hiding would be harder.
There is the possibility of fading skins though. Skins that change color depending on distance basically.
Also regarding icons: yes, the old style icons are wrong but what if it were an identification icon depending on real vision. That would only show up if close enough and if you really see the plane unobstructed. e.g. canope or outside the screen would not display it?
Lastly there is also an option to select a skin and chose different airplane characteristics.

And of course there is always the option of people just going to regular servers if they don't have a problem with the FM or anything.

Keep one thing in mind though. There is a game coming up that WILL have a solution. It's world of planes it it will most likely do it similar to World of Tanks. And no, I don't like the game but I want IL-2 to become a great place for pilots that like WW2. However, with CEM and all this bickering about FM, balance and so on this WON'T happen. Only for freaks but not average new pilots interested in the genre.
This community needs to let go of some ideals of the past if it want's the genre to stay alive I believe.




This said let me say somehting about realism.
When people expect their planes to have the best fuel, ammunition, always spawn it in perfect condition with no material wear or bad service whatsoever, when they sit in front of their monitors, fed and eating great food, being in perfect health and rested. Not having family issues because of the war, being in a moral fight with themselves, being scared up there because they are about to lose their lives, being sad because they see great friends and comrades die, hearing them scream in pain over the voice com when going down...

Also we all are aces, or potential ones. There is always the respawn button and we know the strengths and weaknesses of our opponents perfectly. The pilots back then didn't, or barely. Yet we still demand the FM to be perfect? So we can exploit those very weaknesses we now know planes had? Ridiculous.
Do you seriously think this is realistic and honorable dogfighting? To me it's more like mudfighting on the lowest level.

On top of that there were orders. For example Görings legendary decision to escort bombers at close range, essentially rendering the ME109 useless and making it a sitting duck. Do you know how many 109s were lost because of that?

Or the british flying in line formations, totally ridiculous and some pilots even ignored the order as far as I know.

That said I cannot imagine how people go on about their realism. We CANNOT get realism. We cannot re-create all this. Only during co-op missions and full organized historic wars. This could be done but it's hard. It's not what dogfight servers are about though. Also a true dogfighter would want his opponent to be equal.




Eventually I'll make a write up of this and post it in general. Also please don't be offended. This is not just adressing you but everyone. It's also sounding rude but that is not the intention.
My point is simply that all this talk about FM and so on is far from being historic and that it turns people away from the game only attracting very few freaks. I'm a little scared that the upcoming World of Planes will turn out to be a competitor just because it makes dogfighting easy to get into and "fair and balanced". I want this sim to turn out way better. Maybe it's time to start thinking and discussing options that could improve simple dogfighting in this sim. If all the energy wasted on bringing up historic documents etc. pointing out flaws in your opponents plane would be used for trying to make dogfighting better in this game I'm sure we could come up with something.

Mate I dont care about having a Arcade style same planes server..we had it in Il2 so why not here..however we need realistic or as close to it scenario servers too..again just like in Il2...

No ones here to get this game like WOP, and Im pretty sure no one would want that, this is a Sim.. wed go and buy a console if that's what we wanted, I dont understand your argument here no offence, I just dont EDIT## Sry I do see your argument but not your point in it being here, with this game...I got rid of the console and built my rig to play Flying Sims, you cant get these types of accurate sims on consoles and up till now you never have..but if you did then you would still have the same discussions if that game is a 'Sim' not an arcade game

Originally Posted by Winger

There are people on that that would fit. I am definately not one of them.

Winger

+1

Its the exact opposite reason to that as to why were discussing this and have 'some' knowledge on the matter..what we could do though is model every aircraft's FM the same and just make em different visually how about that?

[Madfish]

I said it in my post or was trying to say: this only goes for dogfighting. Co-op and realism servers should stay the way they are, of course, they are imbalanced by design and people have to expect that. I'm saying should because it's also very naive. There could be cool applications. For example fighting in a captured plane. Yes, not the most realistic thing but still interesting for a co-op scenario.

But saying dogfighting servers are real or as close to realism as they can be is wrong in my opinion. I laid out enough arguments in my post above and no one has ever bothered with answering them.
What's so real about our dogfight servers? The conditions back in the days have been totally different. So we can't just quote this past and force it on the game now and say "this is real". It's not.

How you say arcade to such a server escapes me though. Just because I want the very same realistic planes being able to go up against each other? That changes nothing regarding the simulation fidelity I believe.

[Gollum]

Has anyone noticed that it's difficult to outclimb everything in a 109 post patch?

I usually fly the 109 and used to do pretty well with at least 1 kill per night (not a whole lot since im fine tuning my dive gunnery). Ide get more if I was able to sneak up on them but no matter what It was rare Ide get shot down since I know the golden rules. Maintain altitude, shallow dive away when in touble until energy levels equaled out and then outclimb. However post patch....

I was flying on the full real hyperlobbly server last night..

I took a 109 up and gained altitude (about 4000 M) and crossed the channel following a friendly 109. we turned west when reaching the coast. In the long radious turn I checked our six to find 2 planes approaching from 7:00 low. I figured they were friendly since they were coming from france as well. As they got closer to my dismay I began making out the outline of what I thought was a spitfire. They were close but not within firing range. I quickly engaged afterburner, set prop pitch to 2400 RPM and straigtened out begining a fleeing climb. I maintained this for 30 to 40 seconds and since I was yet to recieve fire jigged my rudder to check my six hoping to see the devilish spitfire a bit further away and under me as would be normal. Unfortunately the buzzard was closer and began firing. (thought to myself oh **** its a IIa). I quickly banked left towards france full throttle adjusting pitch to maintain rpm band in a shallow dive expecting to outrun the beast. Again, to my dismay he advanced... and began tearing my plane appart with his 303s. Frustraded at this point having on normal conditions would had bested his energy in the dive and now begun my climb I asked ( "let me guess.. IIas on this server?"). I recieved the reply : "LOL im in a hurricane"...

Now I'm not saying that i'm a ace 109 pilot because i'm far from it at this point but has anyone else noticed similar problems? I only ask because another 109 pilot was also online stating that they must have changed something.

It could have been pilot error on my part, you never know, so im not saying it has changed. Just asking if anyone else has had problems outclimbing / diving RAF aircraft since patch.

As far as the IIa debate goes.. I want realism. If the limeys had the planes in certain numbers servers should include limited amounts of them based on number of players online. 20 players online flying for RAF? give them 8 of them to choose from. 40 players? give them 16. This would keep the realism and make it fair for both sides assuming all flight models were accurate to RL. I wouldn't mind watching out for a few while fighting mostly Ia's. And this would prevent the RAF from complaining when the next more advanced Germ fighter comes out. ect....

oh oh oh. and also you could have a system where bombing factory targets reduce availible percenteges of "advanced fighters" . This would give the bomber pilots a reason to fly.

[Ze-Jamz]

Originally Posted by Madfish

I said it in my post or was trying to say: this only goes for dogfighting. Co-op and realism servers should stay the way they are, of course, they are imbalanced by design and people have to expect that. I'm saying should because it's also very naive. There could be cool applications. For example fighting in a captured plane. Yes, not the most realistic thing but still interesting for a co-op scenario.

But saying dogfighting servers are real or as close to realism as they can be is wrong in my opinion. I laid out enough arguments in my post above and no one has ever bothered with answering them.
What's so real about our dogfight servers? The conditions back in the days have been totally different. So we can't just quote this past and force it on the game now and say "this is real". It's not.

How you say arcade to such a server escapes me though. Just because I want the very same realistic planes being able to go up against each other? That changes nothing regarding the simulation fidelity I believe.

~S~

Well having servers that fit in with what your saying as long as we still have our Co-Op FR mission based servers which im sure repka n ATAG will provide with more n more detail once things are easier to play with mission building wise and more importantly work..

As you say have your plane against plane server and indeed it would be a 'dog'fighting server...nothing more

Sry 'arcade' wasnt putting across what i meant

[Madfish]

Originally Posted by Gollum

oh oh oh. and also you could have a system where bombing factory targets reduce availible percenteges of "advanced fighters" . This would give the bomber pilots a reason to fly.

Loving this idea. But it's problematic.

For example I remember some discussion about 110 octane fuel for the brits. Ugh, still gives me the headache. What I'm trying to say is people will start fighting over how many "advanced" this or that each side has to have.

Also on the servers people would fight over the planes as there would probably be a first come first serve approach...

But I love the idea of having some value as a bomber pilot other than... none.