A flyable GST?

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Verdun1916

How about a flyable PBY-5 and a GST, the Soviet licence built version of the PBY-5, then? Would that be possible?

Other than the need to create a whole bunch of new crew stations, I think that another issue with the PBY series is that IL-2 can't (currently) handle amphibious aircraft. That would make the PBY-5A impossible, even ignoring the other changes to the aircraft.

PBN-1 Nomad was produced by the US Government and would definitely be free of copyright/trademark issues, as would the GST, the Soviet license-built variant.

A flyable GST would require 8 crew stations (nose gunner, bombardier, pilot, co-pilot, radar operator, 2 waist guns, 1 ventral tunnel gunner). A flyable PBN-1 would require 7 crew stations, omitting the ventral tunnel gun position. Both of these omit the engineer, radio operator, and navigator positions.

If you want to be completist, a good selection of models which saw combat use would be:

GST - Soviet license-built version of PBY (probably PBY-1) with Shvetsov M-62 or ASh-62IR engines, Soviet armament, instruments, and crew equipment. First produced in 1939. Unknown number built, but widely used.

Catalina I - Similar to PBY-4, but British equipment, including 6 .303 caliber Vickers machine guns – 1 in the nose, 1 in the rear tunnel and 2 each in a manual mounting in each of the blister windows. Slightly different engines, engine nacelles, and vertical stabilizer from PBY-5. Direct-ordered by the UK. First introduced in early 1941. Notable because this was the first Catalina in British service and was probably the model which was used to detect the Battleship Bismarck. 109 built.

PBY-5/PB2B-1 (Model 28-5) - Main early war USN production version, also built by Boeing Canada and used by RCAF, RAAF, and RAF (as PB2B-1 or Catalina IVA or IVB). Could be fitted with air-sea rescue, anti-submarine, or anti-ship ordinance depending on nation and intended role. Introduced 1941. 684 US-built, 240 Canadian-built.

PBN-1 Nomad - Naval Aircraft Factory built version of the PBY-5 with altered hull, wingtip floats, and tail surfaces. Clamshell doors protected bombardier's window. Single 0.50 cal. gun in retractable nose turret. No tunnel gun. Strengthened wing and increased wing fuel tank capacity. Could be fitted with Soviet or RAF ordinance. Might have been fitted with RAF or Soviet crew equipment and armament. First introduced in FEB 1943. 155 built, 17 used by RAF as Catalina V, 138 used by Soviet Navy as KM-1.

PBY-5A/PBV-1A late (Model 28-5A) - Amphibious version of PBY-5 with two 1,200 hp R-1830-92 engines. 2 0.30 cal. bow guns. (124 early versions just had 1 bow gun.) This variant carried a wide variety of ordinance depending on its intended role - Air-Sea Rescue, Anti-Submarine or Anti-Ship, and which nation was using it. Some equipped with anti-surface vessel or air-to-surface radar in radome (similar to PBY-6A). Many fitted with other anti-submarine aids (e.g., radio tracking equipment). Used by RAF as Catalina IIIA. 803 built. PVA-1A was Canadian Vickers built version. 150 used as Canso-A by RCAF, 230 used by USAAF as OA-10A (air-sea rescue version, USAAF instruments and crew equipment). 380 Canadian built.

PBY-5A "Black Cat" - As above, but modified to carry Air-to-Surface Radar, fitted with highly accurate radio altimeter, and equipped for night patrol operations. Similar aircraft were used by RAAF. In addition to appropriate USN and RAAF ordinance, these planes sometimes carried smaller bombs and improvised noisemakers so they could carry out night harassment operations. 6 USN squadrons converted to this model (~50 planes?) 2 RAAF squadrons. First introduced late 1942.

PBY-6A - Revised version of PBY-5A. 1,200 hp R-1830-92 engines, taller fin and rudder (similar to that of PBN-1), altered control surfaces. Radar scanner fitted above cockpit. 2 0.5 cal. nose guns in "eyeball" turret. Increased wing strength. This variant carried a wide variety of ordinance depending on its intended role - Air-Sea Rescue, Anti-Submarine or Anti-Ship - and which nation was using it. First introduced early 1945. 175 built, 21 used by Soviet Navy.

[Spudkopf]

Originally Posted by Sita

in fact yes it's a beauty Bird... and we even have some old unfinished preform for Cat ... but main question is who and when will do it ...

Would that be Gibbage's old project:

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php...o-the-catalina

[Sita]

i suppose that exactly what i'm talking about

[Marabekm]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Other than the need to create a whole bunch of new crew stations, I think that another issue with the PBY series is that IL-2 can't (currently) handle amphibious aircraft.

There are several amphibious aircrafts in game: PBN, E13A, A6M2-N, MBR, Ar-196, Cant. Z 506B, and maybe one or two more that I missed. However currently the only flyable option is the A6M2-N Rufe. And there is the Ju-52 version with the floats. Speaking of that aircraft, will that version be made flyable when the standard Ju-52 is?

[Buren]

Originally Posted by Marabekm

There are several amphibious aircrafts in game: PBN, E13A, A6M2-N, MBR, Ar-196, Cant. Z 506B, and maybe one or two more that I missed. However currently the only flyable option is the A6M2-N Rufe. And there is the Ju-52 version with the floats. Speaking of that aircraft, will that version be made flyable when the standard Ju-52 is?

If I correctly understand it, the game engine can't handle aircraft capable of landing on both water and land. It's either one or the other, even though there are gears and everything in the PBY-5A version IRL.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Marabekm

There are several amphibious aircrafts in game: PBN, E13A, A6M2-N, MBR, Ar-196, Cant. Z 506B, and maybe one or two more that I missed. However currently the only flyable option is the A6M2-N Rufe. And there is the Ju-52 version with the floats. Speaking of that aircraft, will that version be made flyable when the standard Ju-52 is?

These are all dedicated seaplanes/flying boats which can only take off and land on water.

A truly "amphibious" seaplane or flying boat has the capacity to take off and land on both water and land.

For some reason, only the allies had amphibious aircraft during WW2, although the technology was well-known.

WW2 amphibians which saw operational service: Consolidated PBY-5A & PBY-6A Catalina, Douglas RD-4 Dolphin, Grumman G-15/J2F Duck, Grumman G-21/JRF Goose, Grumman G-44/J4F Widgeon/Gosling, Shavrov Sh-2, Sikorsky S-43/JRS-1 "Baby Clipper", Supermarine Walrus, and Supermarine Sea Otter. Of this list, the "important" ones which saw the most extensive combat service are the Consolidated PBY-5A Catalina, Shavrov Sh-2, and Supermarine Walrus.

Additionally, a number of land planes could be converted to seaplanes by adding floats, but this prevented them from being operating from land until the floats were removed and wheels replaced. For example, the Ju-52/6m or the Kawanishi N1K Kyofu "Rex."

[dimlee]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

GST - Soviet license-built version of PBY (probably PBY-1) with Shvetsov M-62 or ASh-62IR engines, Soviet armament, instruments, and crew equipment. First produced in 1939. Unknown number built, but widely used.

Just 27 a/c were built according to:
http://www.hydroplanes.ru/gidrosamol...rosamolet.html
http://www.navylib.su/avia/katalina/03.htm

Production stopped in 1940.
There were 11 in the Black Sea Navy (9 lost in 1941-1942) and 7 in the North (at least 4 lost in 1941).
4 planes survived WWII. Engines: М-87А, M-88, M-62, M-62IR.
Superior to other Soviet flying boats, but same destiny - high losses due to reckless (or desperate) tactics in early war period, poor maintenance, low crew qualifications, lack of spare parts.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by dimlee

Just 27 a/c were built

Thanks for the additional information.

So, a much rarer bird than I thought. That means that the GST is rare enough that it shouldn't be included in the list of historically important Catalina variants.

[Cloyd]

Originally Posted by Buren

If I correctly understand it, the game engine can't handle aircraft capable of landing on both water and land. It's either one or the other, even though there are gears and everything in the PBY-5A version IRL.

There is one MOD plane that I know of (the Grumman Duck) that resolves this issue. It can land on water or land. I assume that if the modders can do it, TD could do it too. Yes? No?

Cloyd

[Verdun1916]

Originally Posted by Cloyd

There is one MOD plane that I know of (the Grumman Duck) that resolves this issue. It can land on water or land. I assume that if the modders can do it, TD could do it too. Yes? No?

Cloyd

I don't think there is any problem to make a seaplane that can land both on water and on land. The Catalinas/Nomads had retractable landing gear like most other land based aircraft. However you would need a separate key-command for the wingtip pontoons so you can use them without lowering your landing gear.

However...the difficult part I think might be the AI and to be able to get that to be able to act the correct way in the correct situation. That is making the AI know when to lower the landing gear or when to lower the wingtip pontoons depending on if it's supposed to land on land or water. I'm not sure how the already present AI PBN Nomad works when it come to landing and taking of on water compared to on land. I think it can only handle water landings and take-off's but I'm not sure. I will have to check that out.

But I'm not a programmer so this is just my thoughts on the matter and I might be wrong here.

EDIT: I did a little test with the stock AI PBN Nomad. I Used the Norway map and set the British seaplane airbase as take of point for it and the big airbase to the south of it as final waypoint and landing point to see if the Nomad would try to land there. But it seems that the AI was smart enough to realize something was afot so after reaching it's last mid-air waypoint it automatically landed back at the seaplane base instead of the land base I had designated as it's landing point.

So maybe a solution would be to have two versions of seaplanes that was historically capable of landing both on water and land. One version for water take-offs and landings only and one for land take-offs and landings only. If it's not possible to make a version that can handle both, both player and AI wise.