Dogfighting -does 4.11-4.12 patch address this?

[gaunt1]

Originally Posted by Laurwin

well, I play lot of QBM but maybe I'm not so good even still at this game.

I played moscow winter, 4 american p47Ds vs 4xbf-109E4s + 4xfw190A5s
Americans were ace, Germans were rookie. Altitude Americans at 3000m, Germans at 1000m.

I killed 4 planes in total. My allies killed maybe 1 plane from the Germans which was despicable performance. All American aces were shot down by rookie germans except my plane hehe lol

I tried to drag remaining focke wulfs to high altitudes. Remaining bf109 went home. Although I must say their performance didn't seem much hampered at all, I was trying to fight turn fight fw190 co-alt at 9000m, but they did have pretty good speed still, and turn performance! Stalemate in the end I should say, conga-line of enemies chasing you

Dont even think about a turnfight even with a bomber in a P-47! It is absolutely the worst turning fighter plane of the game, even the Fw-190 is able to outturn it easily.

[Laurwin]

Originally Posted by gaunt1

Dont even think about a turnfight even with a bomber in a P-47! It is absolutely the worst turning fighter plane of the game, even the Fw-190 is able to outturn it easily.

we were flying over 9000m alt though. Absolute service ceiling for fw190 is 11,000m (not enough for sustained turn fighting, keeping it's altitude, in reality, it means plane can hold level flight barely)


I wondered only, if the AI gets unrealistic high altitude power boost regardless of plane which it's flying? Does anybody know about this?

Or maybe I should have climbed even higher LOL, to the aforementioned 11,000m

[Notorious M.i.G.]

Originally Posted by X-Raptor

ok then all this aces m8 who state to be SO brave:

gaunt1, Derda508, IceFire, please post here a track 8vs8 spit/me109 average level whatever year and then show how brave you are. Is simple to say just theoretical WORDS about how to be an ace-player like you all are arguing to be.
I'm waiting..

Originally Posted by X-Raptor

tell me how many SECONDS you survive (....) sun or not sun help.. clouds or not clouds help....altitude advantage help.... energy management strategy.... speed management ... m8, you can argue and try whatever tactic you want but the sad and frustrate result is always the same: you not survive more than about 30-60 sec after engaging the dogfight. this is not possible. .. and isn't historic... is this a SIMULATOR?

Just did a few 8v8 runs against Spit F.Vbs in both the 109F-2 and G-2, 5000m alt. Challenging, yes. BS? Not hugely. I even got fired on quite a few times but made it through with minor battle damage on the G-2 and barely scratched the F-2's paintwork (until I got target fixation and stupidly collided with the second-to-last Spit )

AI Spits tend to do some odd things like insanely fast barrel rolls, but I've seen far crazier stuff from human players. The seeming inability of the AI to blackout is what irks me most. Veteran and Ace AI do perform some dubious deflection shots at points where I'm pretty sure they shouldn't be able to see you from the cockpit, let alone accurately track you, but that's just my experience and not solid fact.

Friendly AI does need a lot more babysitting command-wise, because the enemy flight leads are instantaneously dishing out orders that you have to take time (and remember) to do. That's where I think people fall into the trap of thinking friendly AI is useless - the AI-led ones are being given orders that you're not thinking to do.

I'd gladly upload a couple of tracks of the fights, but it seems the forum doesn't like me uploading attachments and I can't be arsed recording them and putting them on YouTube. If you whinge enough and I'm bored enough I might

Originally Posted by gaunt1

Dont even think about a turnfight even with a bomber in a P-47! It is absolutely the worst turning fighter plane of the game, even the Fw-190 is able to outturn it easily.

I don't know about that, the LaGG-3RD is pretty awful at doing anything other than burning...then again, beating the jetLaGG at anything is like an adult beating a 4 year old in a running race

[K_Freddie]

Originally Posted by Laurwin

I wondered only, if the AI gets unrealistic high altitude power boost regardless of plane which it's flying? Does anybody know about this?

The AI also suffers at high alts - it's problem is that it's not as gentle on the controls (the last time I did this) and loses height after a while. Just fly very gently keeping speed up and you'll out-turn it, although the most effective way to get behind it is up-n-down yoyo-ing, top turning with a lot of rudder, keep the wings level as possible to maximise lift.

[majorfailure]

Originally Posted by Notorious M.i.G.

Just did a few 8v8 runs against Spit F.Vbs in both the 109F-2 and G-2, 5000m alt. Challenging, yes. BS? Not hugely. I even got fired on quite a few times but made it through with minor battle damage on the G-2 and barely scratched the F-2's paintwork (until I got target fixation and stupidly collided with the second-to-last Spit )

Just as a sidenote: In a G-2 (depending on Spit variant also in a F-2), this is challenging, but you always have one advantage-speed. Allows for getting away with small errors, though blundering will be punished.

Originally Posted by Notorious M.i.G.

Veteran and Ace AI do perform some dubious deflection shots at points where I'm pretty sure they shouldn't be able to see you from the cockpit, let alone accurately track you, but that's just my experience and not solid fact.

Depending on what shots exactly, humans do that too -or have you never shot at an enemy below your line of sight that you expected to be in your crosshairs a moment later?
Split S and some degree of roll to change direction surprises normal and rookies at least sometimes (And the AI does that against you, too!).

Originally Posted by Notorious M.i.G.

Friendly AI does need a lot more babysitting command-wise, because the enemy flight leads are instantaneously dishing out orders that you have to take time (and remember) to do. That's where I think people fall into the trap of thinking friendly AI is useless - the AI-led ones are being given orders that you're not thinking to do.

Do you know what exactly the AI leaders do command? At least when flying wing to an AI leader they don't tell my much -and little useful. And even if it were so, still is a handicap to the player that has to fly, shoot, and at the same time type out the commands to his flight. And some things are rather odd, my wingman should protect me - and though I often find him trailing the enemy behind me and slowly catching up -and then overtake the enemy to stay in formation with me - and if I command him attack or cover me he is gone not to be seen ever again...(Though I think that since 4.11 I had a few times where my wingman actually did some kind of drag&bag maneuvre together with me)

Originally Posted by Notorious M.i.G.

I don't know about that, the LaGG-3RD is pretty awful at doing anything other than burning...then again, beating the jetLaGG at anything is like an adult beating a 4 year old in a running race

This abomination is a serious contender for Most Useless.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by X-Raptor

ok then all this aces m8 who state to be SO brave:

gaunt1, Derda508, IceFire, please post here a track 8vs8 spit/me109 average level whatever year and then show how brave you are. Is simple to say just theoretical WORDS about how to be an ace-player like you all are arguing to be.
I'm waiting..

I will if you do

[IceFire]

You want to know what... I'll bite.

Posted to my SkyDrive: http://sdrv.ms/1bvdY5p

First two are 8 Spitfire F.IX 1942 vs 8 Bf109G-2...everyone is a Veteran.

Third is 8 Spitfire LF.IXe (clipped) +25lb boost vs Bf109K-4...once again everyone is a Veteran.

The first two I take a bit of damage and still manage to score some kills. Spitfires are victorious and I get anywhere between 1.5 to 3 kills on those. With the LF.IXe I turned that into a 4 planes shot by this guy. Got a bit lucky with the one Bf109K-4 who missed me and then I shot him! The G-2 are really the more dangerous fighters... the K-4 are less agile and just don't do well in a stand up fight. The AI isn't good enough to really make the most of this aircraft. They are definitely better at the G-2 but this is largely the same in the online world. The Veterans you see there are what I'd call above average but fairly typical in skill level to what I see from veteran IL-2 players. Ace AI are like some of the top players I've seen.

I utilize my wingman when I can although once the fight gets started all bets are off. My poor wingmate did die in the second one... shot to oblivion by a 109G-2 while I was trying to close the gap.

Any questions?

EDIT: Oh... and I still want to see you do it. Or not.

[Derda508]

Nice vids and well flown, Ice

But I don´t think it will convince sombody who refuses to be convinced and does not even read what people are writing to him (which nicely supports the point I made about "believers"). In a previous post I openly admitted that I am a bad pilot. I get shot down all the time, I just don´t put the blame on the game or some sinister TD mastermind. I know it is because I am to lazy to do some proper training.
Most probably now you will be accused to cheat evn more than AI does ...

[X-Raptor]

Originally Posted by IceFire

You want to know what... I'll bite.

Posted to my SkyDrive: http://sdrv.ms/1bvdY5p

First two are 8 Spitfire F.IX 1942 vs 8 Bf109G-2...everyone is a Veteran.

Third is 8 Spitfire LF.IXe (clipped) +25lb boost vs Bf109K-4...once again everyone is a Veteran.

The first two I take a bit of damage and still manage to score some kills. Spitfires are victorious and I get anywhere between 1.5 to 3 kills on those. With the LF.IXe I turned that into a 4 planes shot by this guy. Got a bit lucky with the one Bf109K-4 who missed me and then I shot him! The G-2 are really the more dangerous fighters... the K-4 are less agile and just don't do well in a stand up fight. The AI isn't good enough to really make the most of this aircraft. They are definitely better at the G-2 but this is largely the same in the online world. The Veterans you see there are what I'd call above average but fairly typical in skill level to what I see from veteran IL-2 players. Ace AI are like some of the top players I've seen.

I utilize my wingman when I can although once the fight gets started all bets are off. My poor wingmate did die in the second one... shot to oblivion by a 109G-2 while I was trying to close the gap.

Any questions?

EDIT: Oh... and I still want to see you do it. Or not.

ok m8, you then are an ACE player..congrats..probably you have the lucy to stay many hours of day with your joystick in the hands and you can manage to win even with all those cheats made by uber A.I. created by TD.
But this not solve the matter that people like you are rare, and general average player folks (like me..) continue to be frustrate to see this UBER- CHEAT A.I. (and more and more after every DT paches..). regards.

[gaunt1]

So, my own test (no track sorry)

8 Bf-109G6 early (Veteran) vs 8 La-5FN (Veteran), 2000m
I deliberately replaced the Spitfire with the La-5, because the soviet fighter is far more dangerous, especially at that altitude, and especially because it has unrealistic, overmodeled FM.

First, some facts:

- Bf-109G6 is ABSOLUTELY no match for a La-5FN, it has far worse flight characteristics in every imaginable aspects, at any altitude.
- Im not a good pilot, mediocre at best.
- I usually fly Yaks and Japanese planes, and sometimes P-51 or Spitfire. (besides bombers)
- I dont have much experience with the Bf-109 (because I hate it)

Result: I survived for about 4-5 minutes. During that time, I even managed one kill, but almost immediately, another Lavochkin (not the wingman of the downed one, he was from the second flight) quicky got in my back. I managed to hold him, primarily with barrel rolls, he exhausted all his ammo supply, while I got only a few hits, without noticeable damage. Unfortunately, a second La-5 shot me down after this. End result: 6-6, two planes returned to base from both flights.

Conclusion: While the chance of survival in the above setup is very low, and AI can cheat with its immunity to G, and with an overmodeled UFO aircraft (La-5FN), the myth that AI kills you with one salvo in a few seconds is BUSTED!