Dogfighting -does 4.11-4.12 patch address this?

[Bearcat]

Originally Posted by Pugo3

While I'm on the subjsect of aircraft performance...

I've read mostly positive reviews of the 4.11 - 4.12 patches regarding the improvements to AI characteristics. All good, I look forward to installing these patches, thanks to the good people and their work on our behalf. However, have the following issues been addressed?

1) Previously, if the AI aircraft's performance in Quick mission is greater that yours, it climbs away to begin a series of endless 'jousting' head on passes/bounces. No dogfighting ever, just jousting - endless jousting. Has anyone else ever been able to close in dogfight a P-51 with a Me 109, Fw 190?

It actually did happen, no, really it did. Honest to God, it really did happen occasionally.

I can only do so using another simm. Never mind this is not historical in the main, that the vast majority of encounter were close in dogfighting. The opportunity to see how one aircraft would compare in a dogfight with another is N/A - my chief complaint with Il-2 over the years. I know many love jousting and bouncing, but would it hurt to at least somehow be able just once to acutally dogfight another aircraft? Just once?

2) If one chooses to dogfifght with multiple AI aircraft, for some unknown reason the AI aircraft become rocket powered, absolutely boosted performance. I actually most time enjoy this as it ads challenge, but at the same time I'm aware that this is an inaccuracy, and I would like to see how I would fare against multiple aircraft with realistic flight characteristics maintained even with increased number of advesaries.

Love Il-2, many thanks to all who created it and are working to improve the product. Just please accept as recommendations to improve the brand.

First of all in the QMB you have to make all of your wingmen aces or veterans.. otherwise they will not support you correctly .. secondly if you have more than one flight of enemies make your enemies average or rookies .. if you have 3 flights you can make one flight a veteran flight. If you do not do this you will be gangbanged before you know it and you will be very frustrated. The AI in 4.12.1 is very good.. the best it has ever been. I would like to see the ability to set individual pilot skillsets in the QMB instead of flight skill sets..

[Pugo3]

I thought it best to avoid directly answering the one respondant who demonstrates the unfortunate tendancy of too many forum perons these days to reply with rather condenscending, dismissive, and demeaning remarks after first misrepresenting and attaching all sorts of malice to my comments. Such persons are best left to themselves, a fitting punishment in itself.

It is an historical fact that 51's and 47's did dogfight with German fighters on occasion, the accounts are plentiful and you've all read them, no need to make this string a mulitpage tangle of combat accounts quotes to make the point. In QMB, a 51 and 47 will not dogfight, only fly away and joust. Mock, dispute, slander, misrepresent all you wish if you are so inclined, this stands.

Fly a Bf 109E7 against a Spitfire V 1941 one on one.
Fly a Bf 109E7 against a squadron of Spitfire V 1941. Nevermind what our dismissive associate states, see for yourself. Not rocket powered, of course this was overstated, but definitely all Spits are demonstably faster, with higher climbs rates, etc. Try it with other enemy AI aircraft your familiar with.

I inquired only if these failings had been addressed. No honest person of worth would consider this a request for making the game unrealistic. Rather, both of these shortcomings detract from the game and if anything render it unrealistic by not allowing one to experience this aspect of combat flying.

thanks to all who replied with constructive comments while maintaining personal integrity and good faith.

[Woke Up Dead]

Originally Posted by Pugo3

Fly a Bf 109E7 against a Spitfire V 1941 one on one.
Fly a Bf 109E7 against a squadron of Spitfire V 1941. Nevermind what our dismissive associate states, see for yourself. Not rocket powered, of course this was overstated, but definitely all Spits are demonstably faster, with higher climbs rates, etc. Try it with other enemy AI aircraft your familiar with.

I don't know how or why multiple opponents would get this "boost" that they wouldn't get in a 1v1. I think it can only be perception; even if you're watching your energy you still have to make more energy-consuming moves than any single opponent, so they end up higher and faster than you. I experience the same thing online, where I know my opponents don't get a performance boost just by being close to each other.

[MaxGunz]

You come out with a falsehood from the start and somehow you're a victim.
Predictable.

9-1-1? Please send the Whaaaaambulance!

[Pugo3]

Originally Posted by MaxGunz

You come out with a falsehood from the start and somehow you're a victim.
Predictable.

9-1-1? Please send the Whaaaaambulance!

See above reply, nothing new here, only a reveal of the essence of the one making such remarks.

p3

[Fenrir]

Originally Posted by Pugo3

I thought it best to avoid directly answering the one respondant who demonstrates the unfortunate tendancy of too many forum perons these days to reply with rather condenscending, dismissive, and demeaning remarks after first misrepresenting and attaching all sorts of malice to my comments. Such persons are best left to themselves, a fitting punishment in itself.

It is an historical fact that 51's and 47's did dogfight with German fighters on occasion, the accounts are plentiful and you've all read them, no need to make this string a mulitpage tangle of combat accounts quotes to make the point. In QMB, a 51 and 47 will not dogfight, only fly away and joust. Mock, dispute, slander, misrepresent all you wish if you are so inclined, this stands.

Fly a Bf 109E7 against a Spitfire V 1941 one on one.
Fly a Bf 109E7 against a squadron of Spitfire V 1941. Nevermind what our dismissive associate states, see for yourself. Not rocket powered, of course this was overstated, but definitely all Spits are demonstably faster, with higher climbs rates, etc. Try it with other enemy AI aircraft your familiar with.

I inquired only if these failings had been addressed. No honest person of worth would consider this a request for making the game unrealistic. Rather, both of these shortcomings detract from the game and if anything render it unrealistic by not allowing one to experience this aspect of combat flying.

thanks to all who replied with constructive comments while maintaining personal integrity and good faith.

Excuse me for incredulousness at your post when you expect the developers to pander to your desire for dogfight entertainment and reverse years of attempting to make this game as realistic as the limitations of the engine & platform allow.

The AI as in it's current 4.12 form are the most realistic I have seen; in co-ops I find it difficult at times to tell the breathers from the bots. That in and of itself speaks volumes to me about the excellent work FC has done in manipulating the AI dogfight routines.

If my critique of your flying style came across as condescending then it was as a direct result of your ill-informed, presumptuous and mildly insulting post; not to me but to FC, who I suspect has devoted hundreds of - no doubt frustrating - man hours of investigating, experimenting and tweaking the code to get it to the frankly best level I've seen in any sim of late.

I stand by my opinion of why I think you are running into difficulties and why the AI *appear* to you to be turbo boosted. True an element is down to the AI knowing to the second how long they can risk overheating in WEP and are perfectly trimmed in all flight regimes, however if you fight smart you can negate these attributes with your ability to abstract and read the overall fight picture in a way no AI can hope to.

I don't deny more than one-turn dogfights did happen; but their frequency was so low as to be a tiny fraction of the overall percentage. 9 times out of 10 the victim did not even see their attacker.

On top of this your reference to P-51/P-47 combat reports is crucially flawed. The vast majority of the Jagdwaffe pilots by the 1944 era were inexperienced, rushed through training and could just about handle the skills to takeoff land and fly formation; they did not have the tactical nous to be able to understand the dogfight environment and pulled all the wrong moves when defensive; as such because they had such little experience in handling their aircraft at or beyond the limits of it's performance or crucially where their advantages lay against their opponents they bleed their E and just make the job easier for the teamworking USAAF fighter jocks.

Oh, hang on, that scenario sounds familiar... like someone whining that they keep getting gang-banged by teamworking AI that keeps up it's E. Hmmmm. Funny that.

[Woke Up Dead]

"Pander to your desire for dogfight entertainment," "whaaambulance," snarky critiques of piloting abilities, what's the matter with you guys?

The QMB is obviously not a place for hyper-realism, it's for setting up "what if" scenarios. Like, what if I spawn in on my opponent's six, 1000m above him, and he has 100% fuel and no ammo and is a rookie and is alone, and I have 20% fuel and an ace wingman. Realistic?

If you can already set all those variables, then why not also be able to set the aggressiveness and likeliness to dogfight of your opponent? Like a lot of online pilots in planes better suited for hit and run do, you know, for fun?

[MaxGunz]

People come in with revisionist agendas, making false assertions and acting like they're right when they're not. Sorry "victim" but you started it and I'm not the only one who's not eating the BS you put on our table.

Woke Up Dead, anyone can set up QMB as they like. With FMB they can even set up the waypoints the targets will use. Make the enemies rookies if that's what it takes... the game already does that and more! Nobody is saying that everyone has to play the same.

As far as historic, goooooood luck! You can approach elements of history but it's a flight sim and game AI hasn't got the resources to make strategy.

Hey FC! Is it possible to network with PC's that only run AI client? No graphics or input devices, all resources given to AI? What could be achieved then, even with older PC's?

[IceFire]

Combat reports do contain examples of dogfighting and close in energy fights... they also contain reports of mass bounces and not much else. In the QMB I see plenty of both.

I'd like to see what a joust looks like. Could you record us a track of this particular behavior?

Also I'd like to know why a P-51 Mustang should engage in any sort of close in dogfight behavior when its against the strengths of the fighter... similarly I expect a Zero to engage in a close in fight using its turn advantage to maximum effect and avoiding flight regimes that involve too much speed.

[MaxGunz]

Joust is two fighters making head on attacks. Those happened in history every so often, some planes seem almost made for it with a big radial block in front and devastating firepower to go with it. Even the P-38 got a reputation, whoa those guns!

But lessons got learned and aerial suicide avoided. Imagine if every P-51 pilot jousted with every FW pilot he met? The USAAF would have run out of P-51's and pilots pretty quick.