Acceleration comparisons

[sniperton]

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that you -- horseback and woke up dead on the one side, and FC99 and MaxGunz on the other -- grind in two mills. One issue is the performance of aircrafts optimally exploited by the AI, and another is the ability/inability of the human pilot to achieve that optimum using standard game controllers (i.e. a short stick), watching a monitor less than 90 cm in diameter, and relying on flight data as displayed on the cockpit gauges. These limitations on the human player's side vary from user to user, but still there they are, and should be addressed properly when we discuss 'realism' (whatever it means for us). 'Correct' flight performance is one issue, it's actual 'feasibility' is another. Simply because we don't use the same peripherals as the AI does or r/l pilots did.

[MaxGunz]

You don't represent me at all there.

As far as test pilots, historically less than 1% of all pilots make the cut mostly because of the discipline needed. Read up, a lot of WWII Aces tried for the job and didn't make it. And yeah yeah not all test pilots made good combat pilots if that's what it takes to stop the crying, but it takes the quality of a test pilot to fly the necessary tests. Chuck Yeager made it and was noted as a natural, the two jobs are not exclusive but talent and discipline are.

If during a run the plane goes up and down even 1 or 2 meters that will change the acceleration and trim state. By the time the plane has come back down it's going to look like a sudden change. Sound familiar? Guess why I quit trying to make test runs? I'm not good enough!

From what I have read of the pro books, it takes several flights to get one segment of a test done right and many segments to make a total run. They don't just firewall it from stall and burn till top end a few times then land for beer and number crunching.

Well, what Horseback is doing is still way better than steep dive yanked into climb and then however long it takes to get down to just over 109 steady climb speed is where you call it done - check the height - claim FM bias as suspected not like the "test" wasn't set up to do just that.

[sniperton]

Originally Posted by MaxGunz

If during a run the plane goes up and down even 1 or 2 meters that will change the acceleration and trim state. By the time the plane has come back down it's going to look like a sudden change. Sound familiar? Guess why I quit trying to make test runs? I'm not good enough!

You're not good enough, OK. I'm not good enough, OK. My point is different: under the given circumstances mentioned in my post, is there any living human (could there be any living human) who could be good enough to make the trick? Don't misunderstand me, I don't have problems with aircraft performances, and I don't complain for this or that plane being 'porked'. I simply try to draw attention to an important factor of the game beyond maths: there's a gap between 'objective' values (which I don't dispute) and how far they are practically relevant for the player. They are 'reference values', that's OK. But we can move one step further and ask why the player (you and me) is not good enough to achieve them. My problem relates to the way we communicate with the game engine and not to the parameters it is programmed to work with.

[MaxGunz]

So get a Volvo universal joint, about 5 meters of square steel tubing, a seat, various other hardware bits and some electronics and wire then do the cutting, bending and welding and you can join the elites who have.

IRL test pilots did and do fly the tests.You and I are not test pilots and probably never could have been. We're not theoretical physicists either, or gold medal downhill skiers or heavyweight boxing champions. I for one am totally unsuited to be a playboy bunny for at matters.

It's more important for online combat to have good SA than to be able to squeeze the most from your plane. It's more important to have a good wingmate that you act in unison with. It's even more important to be a hotshot marksman than to close the last few percent in pilot skills.

IL-2 is not a test pilot game, it's a fighter pilot game.

[sniperton]

Originally Posted by MaxGunz

So get a Volvo universal joint, about 5 meters of square steel tubing, a seat, various other hardware bits and some electronics and wire then do the cutting, bending and welding and you can join the elites who have.

It's more important for online combat to have good SA than to be able to squeeze the most from your plane. It's more important to have a good wingmate that you act in unison with. It's even more important to be a hotshot marksman than to close the last few percent in pilot skills.

I basically agree, but I put the emphasis elsewhere. Our personal performance and 'feel of flight' is affected by three factors: 1) the potential flight performance of our plane as best exploited by the AI and represented in test charts; 2) our personal skills as listed by you; and 3) the ways and means we apply our skills to the game via various peripherals. This latter is very much compromised and gives a huge 'deadband' as to personal performances: no wonder that some people build custom cockpits to narrow this deadband (exactly what you suggested ironically), and remember how much advantage 6DoF gives over the hat switch. My point is that this No. 3 affects our experience much more than a few kph's change in No. 1, so that it would make much more sense to discuss the 'realism' of peripherals and displays than the 'realism' of the charts.

[JtD]

If the potential flight performance is best exploited by AI, how come I can beat them 9 out of 10? They don't even know how to properly use radiator and pitch.

[sniperton]

Originally Posted by JtD

If the potential flight performance is best exploited by AI, how come I can beat them 9 out of 10? They don't even know how to properly use radiator and pitch.

I, too, can beat the AI thank to my superior intelligence.
What I can't do is to fly and land my fav plane as smoothly as the AI does.

[MaxGunz]

Let me start with the end which is:
I'm not complaining but I am pointing out why some of the conclusions I've seen in this thread are wrong.

Originally Posted by sniperton

My point is that this No. 3 affects our experience much more than a few kph's change in No. 1, so that it would make much more sense to discuss the 'realism' of peripherals and displays than the 'realism' of the charts.

As far as the game goes that is true. But when we try and determine the performance of the game's models and start interpreting results of flaws in our procedures as flaws in the model then it's something else.

IMO this stems from fantasies about Ace pilots and becoming one in-game. At the heart of most FM-whining posts I've seen there is the assumption that the player is test-pilot good and has an absolute understanding of everything that happened in whatever event set them off, point of view and what they didn't see having no effect on their omniscience. It must have happened as, how and why they think it did.
Accounts from WWII pilots are taken as absolute truth to the tiniest detail. If the pilot said it was a Tiger tank then it was regardless of the times when USAAF pilots strafed and bombed Shermans, all the data that says NO is ignored while data that says YES or even MAYBE is taken as absolute support.

Especially in more arcade flight sims ( pretty much all sims I had before 1998 ) it was -easy- to be a top pilot and shooter too. Table driven sims got you there almost automatically. Even IL-2 which is *not* perfect now added whole not-before-included factors as of 4.0 that didn't get complimented by a different control interface method until 4.07.

I consider it a benchmark when a sim includes factors that players have to learn and get used to to even begin to get near top performance.

IRL I spent hours trying to hold a plane +/- 50 ft in steady level flight. I did manage that and note that speed changed more than a couple knots the whole time. A real pilot with more time would hold the porpoising down closer to zero and might get there or really damned close for a short time but how many can stay within 1 meter long enough to pull reliable data out while changing speed?

Now imagine anyone trying to get it exact for a whole full power run from stall to top speed and being so confident in their flying that they use data derived from that to point out flaws in the plane? The difference in gear or whether the pilot is sitting in a moving plane or a chair behind a desk goes not cover the similarity of trying to do that IRL or in game, the only difference is in chutzpah.

We've seen much worse. We've had G... and T... and The Joke who went beyond honest I-didn't-know mistakes to full blown BS creation so:

I'm not complaining but I am pointing out why some of the conclusions I've seen in this thread are wrong.

[sniperton]

Originally Posted by MaxGunz

As far as the game goes that is true. But when we try and determine the performance of the game's models and start interpreting results of flaws in our procedures as flaws in the model then it's something else.
I'm not complaining but I am pointing out why some of the conclusions I've seen in this thread are wrong.

As you might have seen, I'm not really interested in minor performance issues, which I regard secondary in importance. What I'm interested in are the reasons behind the 'flaws in our procedures' -- yours and mines. Many of our flaws, I believe, have something to do with the game interface being 'realistic' in a questionable way. E.g. the 'realistic' image of a cockpit, as we have it on our monitor, is rather unrealistic and mutilated if compared to the full visual perception one might have in that cockpit. Imagine you have to drive your car relying on the image of a single board camera. The image you get is 'realistic', but the visual experience is not. Discussing and debating such issues would be probably more useful than adjusting the charts IMHO.

[RPS69]

Originally Posted by sniperton

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that you -- horseback and woke up dead on the one side, and FC99 and MaxGunz on the other -- grind in two mills.

Nope, TD only tries to use a common reference for everybody, and they need to use a criteria and stick to it, even if some other resources says something is different.

Whenever you attack a particular set of aircrafts from a different resources, if they agree to changeit, you are opening the door for someone else to claim another resource for another particular set of aircrafts.

Let them stick to what they decided as a normal path, just try to give support on bizarre things, and improving some effects implementations.