You are not forced to use Viking Units....

[ckdamascus]

Originally Posted by Fatt_Shade

Yes on paper, but consider att/def and resistances ratio of you and targeted enemy unit.
Expl : 1 black dragon and 315 thorn warriors attacking knight stack. BD will make 110-130 fire dmg with 70att so to knight with 27 def and 30% fire res it goes to average 120*(1+(70-27)*3,33%[this is increase of 133% for att-def])*0,7[this is 30% fire resistance]=204 dmg + possible burning effect
On other side 315 thorns 4 att, 1-3 physical dmg will do to same target 315*2(average dmg)*(1+(4-27)*3,33%[this is reduction for lower att then knight def])*0,7[this is reduction for 30% physical dmg]=280 dmg.

So thorn do make more dmg, but considering if knight stack retaliate they will kill some thorns, but hardly BD and next turn BD make same dmg, while thorns make less caused to loss on retaliation. And so on... Crit% is also factor here, but also is fact if you have 4999 leadership you can have 625 thorns, but still only 1 BD and then thorn will make much bigger difference in dmg uotput. Pure dmg/leadership ratio isnt only thing to consider in planing your army.

Yeah you need ~100% crit and >60 attack over the enemy defense. This is easily achieved with helplessness and/or plague, but at a minimum you need 60 attack (ideally more since helplessness and plague dont' drop the defense to 0).

If defense is already 0, you use pygmy/plague.

This is also why the Viking/Warrior tends to be the best equipped for this -- at least in Armored Princess.

Because of Skald's higher leadership (I wish I knew by HOW much more), they might become the "defacto" master of certain builds.

Thankfully the Viking/Warrior's berseker and bonus to crit damage bonus is INSANE and probably dwarves any leadership bonus the Skald/Paladin gets. I don't know for sure though.

[Loopy]

Yes, if you really, REALLY want to make it harder for yourself and be forced into something like 8 different units, you don't have to use Vikings. That's still not a good situation though. Armored Princess gave you dozens and dozens of options on the first islands other than just human units, it was much better.

Because of Skald's higher leadership (I wish I knew by HOW much more), they might become the "defacto" master of certain builds.

Thankfully the Viking/Warrior's berseker and bonus to crit damage bonus is INSANE and probably dwarves any leadership bonus the Skald/Paladin gets. I don't know for sure though.

It's a 1/.75/.50 relation between Skald/Viking/Soothsayer based on pure levelup bonuses. Other bonuses are either % based (which won't change the ratios at all) or additive bonuses (which will improve the viking and soothsayer's ratio vs skald). At low levels the additive bonuses of the strategy medal and Valkyrie will greatly impact this distribution, expect it to be closer to a 1/.80/.60 ratio (this is based off my soothsayer's additive bonuses on my save right before the spider boss, which is about the point where they will have the greatest effect). So you can assume that Skalds have between 25% and 33% more units than Vikings at most times.

Yes on paper, but consider att/def and resistances ratio of you and targeted enemy unit.
Expl : 1 black dragon and 315 thorn warriors attacking knight stack. BD will make 110-130 fire dmg with 70att so to knight with 27 def and 30% fire res it goes to average 120*(1+(70-27)*3,33%[this is increase of 133% for att-def])*0,7[this is 30% fire resistance]=204 dmg + possible burning effect
On other side 315 thorns 4 att, 1-3 physical dmg will do to same target 315*2(average dmg)*(1+(4-27)*3,33%[this is reduction for lower att then knight def])*0,7[this is reduction for 30% physical dmg]=280 dmg.

So thorn do make more dmg, but considering if knight stack retaliate they will kill some thorns, but hardly BD and next turn BD make same dmg, while thorns make less caused to loss on retaliation. And so on... Crit% is also factor here, but also is fact if you have 4999 leadership you can have 625 thorns, but still only 1 BD and then thorn will make much bigger difference in dmg uotput. Pure dmg/leadership ratio isnt only thing to consider in planing your army.

AFAIK isn't the scaling on att/def linear, and so the effective damage ratio is always the same unless resistances come into play or the enemy defence is more than +-60 your units?

Should really include crits in your calculations. Crits are huge.

Also important to consider is equipment and spells. Consider that Bless will improve non-crit damage by 50% on Thorns but only 8% on the Dragons. Crits improve damage by 300% on Thorns but only 62.5% on Dragons. Equipment that adds +1 damage will add 33% damage to Thorns but less than 1% damage on Dragons.

[Fatt_Shade]

@Loopy

Also important to consider is equipment and spells. Consider that Bless will improve non-crit damage by 50% on Thorns but only 8% on the Dragons. Crits improve damage by 300% on Thorns but only 62.5% on Dragons. Equipment that adds +1 damage will add 33% damage to Thorns but less than 1% damage on Dragons.

That`s why said many things come into consideration regarding dmg/lds ratio to units.
As you said when you reach +60 att on enemy def there is no more need for frenzy and bonus att, then pugmy/plague means much more then +att item, or using +dmg items instead some pure +att equipment.

[dainbramage]

All of these things assume that you've got a polite opponent (and that you the player is similarly polite) who'll let 2 units just attack each-other each turn. That doesn't happen.

Thorns have to get across the battlefield to do anything. And they can and should be inhibited by cold, slow, traps, ice shards and anything else. Dragons will attack first turn. Dragons can hit 2 targets at once, or anywhere up to what, 7 with its special. Dragons reduce the defence of each stack they hit and kill 6.5-13% of the stack per turn. Dragons can hit fire- or magic-damage stacks and basically ignore the retal.

In nearly every practical scenario, dragons will outdamage thorns.

[Loopy]

FWIW, what I have is:

Black Dragons deal 415 effective damage each, and average .2075 effective damage per leadership.

Thorn Warriors deal 2.6 effective damage each, and average .325 effective damage per leadership.

This is assuming that both units have base crit rates and that neither is beyond the +60 or -60 attack cutoff. In practice, Black Dragons will be beyond the cutoff often, so expect them to deal something like 25%-33% less damage then this on average.

Now, the real benefits come in when you add items to Thorn Warriors:

Thorn Warriors with +100% damage +1 +1 damage deal 7 effective damage each, for an average of .875 effective damage per leadership.

You can thorns even more insane, with crit and +attack bonuses you could easily double or triple these numbers. The only comparable item boost I know of for dragons is the -leadership item, which (IIRC) is -20%, meaning dragons max out at .26 effective damage per leadership unless against high level units where their higher attack can add a bit more in.

Thorns have to get across the battlefield to do anything. And they can and should be inhibited by cold, slow, traps, ice shards and anything else. Dragons will attack first turn.

Wait on first turn, let enemy move, you'll be in range of at least one enemy unit on their first turn. Your units aren't inhibited by any of that stuff unless you purposefully move into them.

Dragons can hit 2 targets at once, or anywhere up to what, 7 with its special.

Only if enemy units are positioned right. Thorns can easily hit more than 2x the damage of dragons with their base attack. And concentrated damage is far, far more important than spread out damage. Your dragons could be counter attacked by a 50% dead stack that would be 100% dead if it was hit by thorns instead.

If I may mention the Thorns special ability: After killing a target you can get an entire new stack of thorns. Permanently. Can't remember the size, but IIRC it was something like 2/3rds of the parent stack? Yeah, thats a permanent +66% damage and health boost if you need it during a long battle. Probably slightly less since some Thorns will die by that time, but still a huge benefit.

Dragons reduce the defence of each stack they hit and kill 6.5-13% of the stack per turn. Dragons can hit fire- or magic-damage stacks and basically ignore the retal.

Defense reductions won't matter much since the Dragon already has more than +60 attack in most cases. %health loss doesn't help much unless you are letting the stack sit around for several turns, if you want the stack dead NOW you want upfront damage.

Resistances and defense of the dragons is worth mentioning though. It's the main advantage of high tier units that they can last longer in a long battle. Though after +defense, Thorns do have comparable if not greater base effective health per leadership.

[blacklegionary]

Originally Posted by Loopy

It's a 1/.75/.50 relation between Skald/Viking/Soothsayer based on pure levelup bonuses. Other bonuses are either % based (which won't change the ratios at all) or additive bonuses (which will improve the viking and soothsayer's ratio vs skald).

The ratio is 15/20/10 from the game file.

[Razorflame]

I find it so amusing u guys comparing the BD vs thorn

yes sure maybe in damage wise they can compete EVENTUALLY

but here is the real key question

if you have the option to choose

between a BD or thorn warrior in your army what would you choose?

I bet everyone would take the BD if not either you are being stupid or just want to prove me wrong


just a simple facts besides the math

thorn hunters are hard to be ressurected(time back, demonologist life steal)
BD cannot eb healed by barely die due to high HP and def

BD does have WAY better abilities than a thorn warrior can dream off
BD doesn't have any penalty vs fire


if your so full of yourself then go with a thorn hunter/warrior/royal thorn

into demonis and KILL it without losses

and even with losses let's see how hard it is

it so much easier with BD's

so don't give me that crap of damage per ldrship or w/e

BD>thorns in any way

[Fatt_Shade]

but here is the real key question
if you have the option to choose
between a BD or thorn warrior in your army what would you choose?

Depends on many things, sure plants arent good vs dragons. But i had fun with them in Red sands mod for Ap/Cw : cleared most of Verona and Montero with - Monstera(new plant unit in red sands), Royal thorns, Thorn hunters, fauns and Dryads. I played warrior and had crown of blackthorn, 2x(+1 dmg) and some bonuses to dryads. There were huge stacks of low lvl enemy in those locations and they are easy to control with dryad sleep and fauns. And steamroll with summoned units form monstera and royals, hunters were high dmg units with 3-5/8lds and nice crit%.
But after that i got to orc islands took Trigger and decided to go 100% crit with orcs+paladin and had fun also.
But all plan army whole game would be pain in ass to maintain, but doable i think. True dragon enemy would devastate you, so would fire room in tower of Eventus, but all in all 90% of game battles would be manageable (i`m not sure now but if monstera/royal thorns and hunter thorns are in archer group of units trigger would be great for them also + fauns = 4 range units for 100%, nice idea might try it out).

As for taking dragon army, true they are easy to keep alive, but also soooooo boring
I had version of shrek build and it was interesting to do, need : warrior, Moldok companion ,x2battle axe weapon in game, orc veteran , orc hunter , orc , paladin , 5th unit may vary (shaman, royal griffins-gets bonu from orc hunters, ...). Point is that all melee units have +$0%dmg and orcs great speed and initiative from Moldok, mass haste and in first turn your units are making havoc in enemy lines. With warrior counterstrike+frenzy skill it gets really interesting
4x dragon army +rune mages = great fun , shrek build also = fun , my mini shrek build also = fun ... there are great ideas and builds. 3x plan army with dryad/faun support is also fun to go but not whole game.

[Razorflame]

yes but that is with a mod
try it with a vanilla one

and that is also on CW IIRC?

and you are highly reliant on your summons

and i think hero battles will be a pain in the ass also

(fireball/firespells) the burning effect will devaste plants

[Fatt_Shade]

I just gave example for plan army, here is no monstera unit but faun and dryads are still present and items i mentioned. But problem is that when you get access to this units in elf lands it`s no fun to play them. In Ap/Cw this build could be done from start Verona ad have great fun for next 50-70 battles with it.
Summons are just icing on cake, benefit of this build is that all enemy units 1-3 lvl are perma sleep and you use faun to sleep some 4th lvl stack also ,and all plants to kill rest. Then you pick rest of enemy army stack by stack, resurrecting fallen plants with faun as you go.
Also with black thorn crown+ 2x(+1) dmg items plats will have insane dmg/lds : hunters 4-6/8lds , royals 42-82/380lds , monstera 62-102/500lds (1BD have 110-130, for same lds you can lead 5monstera with potential 300-500 dmg) , fauns 5-7dmg/60lds, dryads 3-5dmg/20lds. Plant build can have interesting play and tactics, but as any other it takes certain preconditions to work best (right items, units available...).

@ckdamascus

Of course, I'm splitting hairs, but the battle axe only offers 20% damage to melee units (if you had 2 of them 40%!), and sadly, Shrek would not have been included in that offering It only worked on a moderate large selection of level 1-4s including the Orc Veteran.

Yes but it`s same as leading +40 larger army all time, and with high crit% it is +60% more dmg then without those items.Highest attack bonus item is +7 for Ctahu claw(7x3,33% =22% more then battle axe, but you get it at end of game, i got 2battle axe on Rusty anchor and verona)) but for warrior who have high att to begin with, +dmg% items are better due to limitation on 60 att over enemy def.
And as i said it`s mini shrek build and all units i listed are included in bonus from battle axe (4 melee units and griffins just to pick up chests and summon nuisance to enemy at end while i resurrect my losses), and orc units have low lds cost so +40% dmg is great for large numbers of them FOR THE HORDE!!!