Trying to play allowing losses is horrible

[ckdamascus]

I just found it amusing he said damage isn't always important (for a Viking/Warrior it is by far the most important stat).

He also said "Tactics" was a waste of a skill because of high initiative. For Viking/Warrior it is paramount for certain builds because not all units have high move speed and round 1 is critical. In fact, thanks to the Siege Crossbow, my elves only have speed of 1. (If my game wasn't bugged, I could have used 2 Yew Bows... )

Sounds like he mostly plays a Mage, which is fine. I played them too and I understand what is important for mages too. However, based on his responses, I'd say he seems to be more experienced in Mage builds than Warrior builds.

@tiberiu diablo 2 hardcore isn't really all that "hard". It is tedious and annoying. Not to mention you can spam full rejuvs in diablo 2. I suppose there is a bit more of a thrill though. Considering people have beaten Diablo 2 solo hardcore with a naked necromancer.... some supposedly did it with /8 player difficulty too while going solo.

They even took on the Uber Tristam with a naked team too. (now that sounds impressive if not for the coordination).

A challenge is a challenge is a challenge, and after spending some time on any of them, you can devolve almost every "video game" challenge to "simple". That's a bit of a stretch though and I think its best to just admire the work someone has done. If you want to poo poo someone's challenge/work because you don't think it is amazing, so be it. You do have the freedom of speech. I think we already know your position on this matter at this point though.

I do admire succeeding in hardcore diablo 2 for their tenacity to withstand what I'd rather not. (perhaps that's your position on no-loss in KB as well)

But I don't know if I'd go as far to say it is stupid. If you ever do a video game challenge and someone says your works are "stupid", don't be surprised. And if you think all video game challenges are inherently not interesting challenges, from that point of view, why would you bother comparing Diablo 2 challenges to this? Most normal people would insist all video game challenges are stupid.

@impy, wow great to see you are alive and well! I sort of like the 'easier' play of WotN if only because it makes it more flexible for different builds mid-way through the game. The plethora of items and such makes it a lot easier to switch up builds without having to restart.

I realize this does take away from the game a bit. I've always felt somewhat railroaded in Armored Princess and had to use scanners to ensure I'd get a very enjoyable build. I'm already at a good start on my 2nd playthrough (only level so I'm hoping that means that most playthroughs have a generous helping of item.

Not sure if you finished it yet, but it is extremely difficult to do no-loss because of certain... "events" later on. I've already speculated it is possible but pretty hard. I wouldn't be surprised if you managed to succeed though!

Just one perspective, perhaps better to try to succeed with a threshold of losses and/or using very strange/weird builds. I've never seen a very successful Dwarf build before or < level 5 neutral build.

What bugs me is that some builds are just TOO efficient right now that it is very hard to deny using them. I felt similar issues with Armored Princess... and without the old Rune Mage for easy level 5 resurrection, I feel even more railroaded. We will see though! Game is still young!

[tiberiu]

Originally Posted by ckdamascus

I just found it amusing he said damage isn't always important (for a Viking/Warrior it is by far the most important stat).

He also said "Tactics" was a waste of a skill because of high initiative. For Viking/Warrior it is paramount for certain builds because not all units have high move speed and round 1 is critical.

I think you missed the part where That whole thread was about using a MAGE. You keep rambling about Warrior when it's completly off topic. But yes, tactics is for noobs always.

people have beaten Diablo 2 solo hardcore with a naked necromancer.... some supposedly did it with /8 player difficulty too while going solo.

"Supposedly". Yea, right. Figures. /8 player too.. sure.

But I don't know if I'd go as far to say it is stupid. If you ever do a video game challenge and someone says your works are "stupid", don't be surprised.

I never said people are stupid for doing no loss. I do no loss myself. Stop trolling please. I said the contrary, black on white, on my first post in that topic. What I said is that the fact that the game allows such a thing is stupid, and it is. No challange in this game when you kill every unit called "invincible" with no loss by cheap exploits like infinite mana/infinite rage +ressurection combos. From now on you will address me with respect.

Game is still young!

Game is not young, game is pre-beta.

[ckdamascus]

Originally Posted by tiberiu

I think you missed the part where That whole thread was about using a MAGE. You keep rambling about Warrior when it's completly off topic. But yes, tactics is for noobs always.

"Supposedly". Yea, right. Figures. /8 player too.. sure.

I never said people are stupid for doing no loss. I do no loss myself. Stop trolling please. I said the contrary, black on white, on my first post in that topic. What I said is that the fact that the game allows such a thing is stupid, and it is. No challange in this game when you kill every unit called "invincible" with no loss by cheap exploits like infinite mana/infinite rage +ressurection combos. From now on you will address me with respect.

Game is not young, game is pre-beta.

Actually, I think YOU missed the part that I was the OP of that thread and I was talking about Viking/Warrior. You know the part where I said I'm a level 25 Viking/Warrior and if level 5s were still viable.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=35778

First 2 guys in the post responded correctly that for Viking/Warriors, level 5s dont' make a lot of sense damage wise.

Someone else started talking about mages and you ran with it. I entertained the idea since no point in kaboshing generally useful information even if it was slightly off topic. What you did say was useful for mages of which I gave you credit for in my previous post. In other words, YOU WERE the one who was off topic.

Well, I like killing bosses in Armored Princess in < 10 rounds with no losses. If you like taking a bit longer, that's cool. Hard to do that without tactics, and if you don't know why, I guess you are too pro to know.

http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/com...-uber-tristram

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcrNA...feature=relmfu

Video of solo naked necromancer hell mode. Not sure if it was hardcore as it is too much for me to watch to see if he died. I'm going to guess probably so.

I can't seem to find info on the Diablo 2 solo hardcore necromancer /8 players. Someone bragged about that on the diablo 3 forums and I think he had a reference point somewhere that I can't find right now. Diablo 2 isnt' really that hard, but the ubers are tricky os the iron man ubers is very tricky (iron man meaning you can't revisit old areas and such). Anyway, it has something to do with only stuff points into dexterity.

I'm sure those guys would think you are quite noob in saying hardcore is a "real challenge" as well. Amazing how relativity works.

But I don't know if I'd go as far to say it is stupid. If you ever do a video game challenge and someone says your works are "stupid", don't be surprised. And if you think all video game challenges are inherently not interesting challenges, from that point of view, why would you bother comparing Diablo 2 challenges to this? Most normal people would insist all video game challenges are stupid.

I never said you said people who do no-loss is stupid. I said you said 'it', as in the work or concept or progress of doing so. Unless someone here plays too much King's Bounty and really does look like a big Troll who can regenerate at night...

Per your own title
"The so called "no-loss" concept (whole game) is wrong and stupid."

Not sure I follow your last line about

From now on you will address me with respect.

- You misread my posting claiming the OP was off topic on his own thread which talked about Viking/Warrior.
- Demonstrated you aren't aware of a different strategy (Viking/Warrior build)
- Misquoted/misread that I said you felt the "no loss challenge" was stupid (we never said people were stupid).
- didn't seem to realize people have beaten diablo 2 hardcore naked in some shape or form

I'd hope you can change my view of you in the future, because besides our general agreement that no-loss can be an unnecessarily painful artificial challenge (I'm a pragmatist), you haven't really earned any more of my respect with your current response despite me trying to be as civil and hopefully factual as possible about it.

[tiberiu]

Originally Posted by ckdamascus

I'm sure those guys would think you are quite noob in saying hardcore is a "real challenge" as well. Amazing how relativity works.

This is just your opinion, which I don't really value that much.
Diablo hardcore is much more of a challange then KB will ever be with the retardedly overpowered stone skin and target spells in the game. (and others)

- You misread my posting claiming the OP was off topic on his own thread which talked about Viking/Warrior.

I was talking about this thread http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=35939

So no, I didn't misread, you are just too confused to understand what we're talking about.

- Misquoted/misread that I said you felt the "no loss challenge" was stupid (we never said people were stupid).

I defended from accusations that I said people who do no loss are stupid. many people accuse me of insults because they aren't fully capable to understand what they read when they read my posts.

despite me trying to be as civil and hopefully factual as possible about it.

try harder then. As you can see I didn't do any of the things listed there. And also I never said I believe it's impossible to do Diablo Hardocore Naked. But until I see it with my own eyes, what I know it that there is a crapload of players outthere who use mods/cheats to do these sorts of things. I play wc3 battle online and like 33% of players use maphacks. But maybe we should stick to discussing KB here.

[ckdamascus]

Originally Posted by tiberiu

This is just your opinion, which I don't really value that much.
Diablo hardcore is much more of a challange then KB will ever be with the retardedly overpowered stone skin and target spells in the game. (and others)

I'm speculating what those guys would say or think. That isn't an opinion.

Are you saying you aren't as good at Diablo 2 hardcore as you are in King's Bounty?

I was talking about this thread http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=35939

So no, I didn't misread, you are just too confused to understand what we're talking about.

Great, I was talking about other threads which you posted on since you were pulling in other threads into this thread. I'm a bit surprised you can't seem to extrapolate this.

I see that you thought I was referring to your Mage Assistance thread. I was not.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthr...t=35778&page=4

You posted about initiative in another thread which is not listed here.

I defended from accusations that I said people who do no loss are stupid. many people accuse me of insults because they aren't fully capable to understand what they read when they read my posts.

That's great, but I wasn't one of them.

try harder then. As you can see I didn't do any of the things listed there. And also I never said I believe it's impossible to do Diablo Hardocore Naked. But until I see it with my own eyes, what I know it that there is a crapload of players outthere who use mods/cheats to do these sorts of things. I play wc3 battle online and like 33% of players use maphacks. But maybe we should stick to discussing KB here.

didn't seem to realize people have beaten diablo 2 hardcore naked in some shape or form

Yeah, but a LOT of people have done it if one is to believe the posts and videos. You immediately dismissed the possibility with sarcasm without even considering it with your snide remark

Quote:
people have beaten Diablo 2 solo hardcore with a naked necromancer.... some supposedly did it with /8 player difficulty too while going solo.

"Supposedly". Yea, right. Figures. /8 player too.. sure.

You just didn't appear to realize it was possible, otherwise you would have said "it's possible, but I don't believe most people did it".

Well, I find the Diablo 2 aspect somewhat on topic with regards to "challenges".

Let's face it. Practice makes perfect. While "hardcore" Diablo 2 means "no mistakes" essentially you learn from experience and practice making "no mistakes".

That's really no different from King's Bounty save/reload on a very high level.

Obviously if you know what you are doing and have a solid plan in place, you will need to do this far less in both games.

The solo hardcore naked necromancer builds follow a relatively "simple" formula that someone else took time to devise. (Just watch the video and you can easily see) This is very very similar to someone "borrowing" ideas from a no-loss guy in King's Bounty.

Or, you can see how relatively speaking both "challenges" aren't really utterly challenging at all if someone has the blue print. Hopefully you can see why someone might consider Diablo 2 hardcore, not really a challenge but a similar artificially frustrating construct as King's Bounty no-loss. And if you can claim one of them is "pointless" or "stupid". You could just as easily say the same about the other (or all video game challenges for that matter).

Just how logical is it that you can defeat the Lords Of Hell... naked?

[tiberiu]

Originally Posted by ckdamascus

I'm speculating what those guys would say or think. That isn't an opinion.

Opinion, speculation, whatever, the same to me.

Are you saying you aren't as good at Diablo 2 hardcore as you are in King's Bounty?

Non sequitur; However, let's not make this all about my person, ok? Am I that interesting? The point is that Diablo at least offers a challange, while KB does not. (even more so because of it's TBS-fights.)

You posted about initiative in another thread which is not listed here.

And I was very correct in what I posted. The game really isn't about damage. It's about spells, skills and talents. The enemy units could deal 1 milion damage/ unit and it would be a moot point since they seldom even get the chance to act with all the spells (blind, sheep, fear, etc), skills (diversions), unit abilities (flashbomb, etc) completly negating the units from taking action.
And yes, thorns are mathematically better then BD's in damage potential in KB game as can be easily proven. BD do not benefit almost at all from hero bonus attack while Thorns greatly do.

That's really no different from King's Bounty save/reload on a very high level.

No, it's hugely different. To play a fair Diablo game (no killing of the same mob more then 1 time, no Save and Exit if you're about to die, etc) it's actually something that requires attention, skill, adrenaline. Especially if you add up the extra-fairness rule "No town portals", but even without it.
KB you hardly need strategy because the game is so imbalanced. Thank Odin for at least having the possibility to fix that via modding.
Save/Reload is basically a cheat. I won't discuss it because there's nothing to elaborate about it. It's like playing chess and you say, "I made a bad move, now I'll retract it and make a better one" - except the rules of the game prevent that. Of course everybody is free to save/reload every 10 seconds for all I care. Just that it's my birthright and freedom of speech to express my opinion that this thing negates all challange.

You could just as easily say the same about the other (or all video game challenges for that matter).

It would be an error to think all games have equal challanges. Most games are indeed easy because the target audience is not that bright, so it will suffice for the companies to make profit $$. Sure, beating 1 AMAI insane computer in Warcraft 3 is Easy if you're at least hasu, but the challange level of the task is still much greater then finishing all KB games on impossible.

Just how logical is it that you can defeat the Lords Of Hell... naked?

He is naked too I think so it's a fair fight.

[ckdamascus]

Originally Posted by tiberiu

No, it's hugely different. To play a fair Diablo game (no killing of the same mob more then 1 time, no Save and Exit if you're about to die, etc) it's actually something that requires attention, skill, adrenaline.

Well, there is the real time element but for some that isn't such a big deal. It isn't like a million bullet shoot them up game. Can we agree the 'real time' element of diablo 2 isn't exactly demanding compared to most games?

Although, "no save and exit" sounds terribly harsh.

Originally Posted by tiberiu

KB you hardly need strategy because the game is so imbalanced. Thank Odin for at least having the possibility to fix that via modding.
Save/Reload is basically a cheat. I won't discuss it because there's nothing to elaborate about it. It's like playing chess and you say, "I made a bad move, now I'll retract it and make a better one" - except the rules of the game prevent that. Of course everybody is free to save/reload every 10 seconds for all I care. Just that it's my birthright and freedom of speech to express my opinion that this thing negates all challange.

I do agree save/reload is faster but the mechanical nature of devising a strategy for your diablo 2 run and king's bounty run. I believe it is far more similar than you think it is, which is why I'm curious if you weren't as good at diablo 2. It isn't a personal insult, but a reference that some gamers are better at some tasks than others.

Again, Diablo 2 Solo Hell Naked Hardcore which you deem "oh so hard" has just as similar of a list of "imbalanced" skills that work so well. Why is it that only ONE class out of the entire game can do it SO well? Isn't that horribly imbalanced by design? Shouldn't you be allowed to solo hardcore naked easily with EVERY class in the game?

The general idea is to use bone wall and have spammable potions everywhere. General crowd control (dim vision etc) and bone spirit as offense. It's tedious but it works similarly to your royal snake vs 2000 bear scenario or magic spring + troll vs Driller.

It would be an error to think all games have equal challanges. Most games are indeed easy because the target audience is not that bright, so it will suffice for the companies to make profit $$. Sure, beating 1 AMAI insane computer in Warcraft 3 is Easy if you're at least hasu, but the challange level of the task is still much greater then finishing all KB games on impossible.

Well, on a very high level, I find them to be similar. It takes some creativity to have the 'plan' but afterwards it is just mechanical for both games. Some people aren't as good at the real-time element, ergo your adrenaline factor and the reloading of a King's Bounty game is certainly more forgiving.

He is naked too I think so it's a fair fight.

Haha, fair enough!

[Fatt_Shade]

You misread my posting claiming the OP was off topic on his own thread which talked about Viking/Warrior.
I was talking about this thread http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=35939
So no, I didn't misread, you are just too confused to understand what we're talking about.

And I was very correct in what I posted.

Oh this is rich, some1 post tread about 5th lvl units on Viking class, and you answer to question from another tread about Mage build with absolutely no connection to question at hand. And then accuse other posters for fail in logic, and being unable to read while you dont apply same standard on yourself. That`s cute.

You are a liar. Thanks for proving it. Leave me alone, you and your troll friends.
And again i`m liar. WHEN and WHERE ? You said so 20 days ago, before my last posts to you, so be true to your words and present proof of your claims.

And agian, you so bravely defend your stand and claim you never insulted anyone and still no response on my question here. Be brave and find my post where i lied and i`ll never again post anything in any way connected to you.

[tiberiu]

Originally Posted by Fatt_Shade

Oh this is rich, some1 post tread about 5th lvl units on Viking class, and you answer to question from another tread about Mage build with absolutely no connection to question at hand. And then accuse other posters for fail in logic, and being unable to read while you dont apply same standard on yourself. That`s cute.


And agian, you so bravely defend your stand and claim you never insulted anyone and still no response on my question here. Be brave and find my post where i lied and i`ll never again post anything in any way connected to you.

When I said that I was correct in what I posted I was reffering to what I wrote in his topic about LVL 5 units.

Stop being so illogical please. And maybe calm down a bit, you're too angry and resentful. You keep flaming me just because I have disagreed with you, it's not very mature, you know.

I showed you are a liar many times now - your post #79 in this topic for example, but there are many others where you shamelessly and lacking common sense you spread lies about me. You said I never helped anybody on this forum and I proved you wrong.