class difference!

[Fatt_Shade]

As BB shockwave said making those skills available to all classes make less difference in builds. There is 30 common skills and ONLY 2 unique per class, this seem odd. Why not make more class specific skills instead just rearanging old ones. 4 unique skills :
1) Viking class - Blodlust , Absolute rage , Runic power , +1 more maybe Anger (this making warrior able to make highest dmg/unit and most rage versatile class)
2) Skald - Edda, Resurrection, Jarl, Belief making him best at protecting his huge army,and highest moral to troops available equaling with warrior due to +30% stats to units but no rage skills to max.
3) Why the f..k would Alchemy be only Mage class skill ??? Unique for mage should be - Higher magic, Thesis (or what ever is it called here) Destoyer , Creator making him best at magic and spells END of story. No other class should be able to have huge amounts of mana and intellect as mage. Period.

@Loopy

And TBH I think Bloodlust is pretty bad in comparison, chugging a rage potion is just as good

Potions arent available because of randomness of game, and you travel to other island = hello you have 0 rage, have fun in first battle here.

[Loopy]

The difference in builds is rune availability. If all classes had all skills builds would still be vastly different. I just checked, and a warrior that spends zero of his magic runes outside of the magic tree (ignoring things like Anger,Icy Rage, Runic Power, Sense Weakness, and Tactics) will get level one of Higher Magic at level 31. And at this point they will have only level 1 in each school, meaning their double cast will be even weaker than a single cast from a better leveled spell. To get a level 3 spell and multiple levels of higher magic will require well over 50 warrior levels. A Mage can get this around level 15 or so. At level 20 a Mage is pumping a huge array of level 3 spells along with Creation and Concentrate/Transmute to fuel themselves.

So no, I don't get why you think builds will suddenly become the same if unique skills were unrestricted. The only class who really have a chance to use those abilities is the Paladin, and only through a lot of sacrifice in other parts of the build. That gives more variety in builds, not less.


FWIW I've found potions on practically every island. You should only need to chug one for hard battles. Bloodlust just doesn't add that much, a flat gain at the beginning of battle isn't as great as vastly stronger abilities and faster rate of gain. Of course both is the best. The point is that other classes will have a very hard time getting both, while warriors get them as easily as mages get magic abilities.

[Bhruic]

Originally Posted by Loopy

The difference in builds is rune availability. If all classes had all skills builds would still be vastly different. I just checked, and a warrior that spends zero of his magic runes outside of the magic tree (ignoring things like Anger,Icy Rage, Runic Power, Sense Weakness, and Tactics) will get level one of Higher Magic at level 31. And at this point they will have only level 1 in each school, meaning their double cast will be even weaker than a single cast from a better leveled spell. To get a level 3 spell and multiple levels of higher magic will require well over 50 warrior levels. A Mage can get this around level 15 or so. At level 20 a Mage is pumping a huge array of level 3 spells along with Creation and Concentrate/Transmute to fuel themselves.

I assume that's just taking runes from leveling into consideration? Because this game seems to give out a lot more runes when adventuring, unless I'm just being very lucky. It's not uncommon for me to open a chest and get, say +3 might runes. You are still likely to skew towards the tree for your class, but there's quite a bit of mobility thanks to world map acquired runes.

[Fatt_Shade]

@Loopy

Warrior that spends zero of his magic runes outside of the magic tree (ignoring things like Anger,Icy Rage, Runic Power, Sense Weakness, and Tactics) will get level one of Higher Magic at level 31. And at this point they will have only level 1 in each school, meaning their double cast will be even weaker than a single cast from a better leveled spell. To get a level 3 spell and multiple levels of higher magic will require well over 50 warrior levels

OK he will get double cast late in game but will still be able to take it. WHY? Isnt this in some part role playing game , so why there is so little differences in hoer classes available? And who said warrior need to use double cast to dmg enemy ? (how about mass haste + mass weakness in same turn ? or x2 stone skin or any other abuse of buff spells that would make his units even more dangerous to enemy troops). That mechanic shouldnt be able at all.
if you ever try Neverwinter Nights (1 not 2) or any of those kind of games you`ll know that each class is unique completely from others , and make every play is much different in play style because of that. Here every class have 45 skill, only 2 unique=4% difference , 15 medals 3 unique = 20% difference.
Not much of role playing if of 3 available classes only this is difference. Randomness of items/reward/units available makes every play a bit more different but in the end many of skills lvled up are same for every class.
In AP/CW i had pet dragon on 60lvl with each class, why is that possible if only warrior should be able to advance to highest rage skill lvl`s ? And mage is only class able to make ridiculous amounts of dmg with spells, and that is OK but limit other 2 classes in same way.
And you are talking about rune availability, and skill upgrades. Not all those skills should be available at all not just depending on runes in game. To make player on start decide what to do, not to wait all game and save runes to get some skill not meant for him.

At level 20 a Mage is pumping a huge array of level 3 spells along with Creation and Concentrate/Transmute to fuel themselves.

This is with expectation you play first. What if there is opponent with all archer 100% crit (+mass precision spell = +30% dmg to all) army and high initiative that decimate your troops in first turn ? This isnt possible so far, because there is no multiplayer of any kind (not even death match But i think (and i `ll do it in my game) that more unique and difference between classes should be implemented in game.

[Zechnophobe]

I'd much rather have level 3 spells than double cast. And realize that pushing all your magic runes into the tree like that is preventing you from getting a lot more useful skald and viking skills.

[Loopy]

I assume that's just taking runes from leveling into consideration? Because this game seems to give out a lot more runes when adventuring, unless I'm just being very lucky. It's not uncommon for me to open a chest and get, say +3 might runes. You are still likely to skew towards the tree for your class, but there's quite a bit of mobility thanks to world map acquired runes.

Well, from what I can see the average finding of runes (for my character at least) is 2 runes of each type every 3 levels. For a warrior that is a 33% increase over just level ups in magic runes, which would equate to getting those abilities about 25% earlier. But keep in mind that the mage would also find runes, getting their abilities earlier too.

Originally Posted by Fatt_Shade

@Loopy OK he will get double cast late in game but will still be able to take it. WHY? Isnt this in some part role playing game , so why there is so little differences in hoer classes available? And who said warrior need to use double cast to dmg enemy ? (how about mass haste + mass weakness in same turn ? or x2 stone skin or any other abuse of buff spells that would make his units even more dangerous to enemy troops). That mechanic shouldnt be able at all.

If you sacrifice enough of your other abilities to do so, yes they should be able to do that. Mass haste and mass weakness? TWO level three spells? If you manage to get enough magic runes then you deserve to use that.

Originally Posted by Fatt_Shade

if you ever try Neverwinter Nights (1 not 2) or any of those kind of games you`ll know that each class is unique completely from others , and make every play is much different in play style because of that. Here every class have 45 skill, only 2 unique=4% difference , 15 medals 3 unique = 20% difference.
Not much of role playing if of 3 available classes only this is difference.

I've probably played more RPGs then you can name. Funny that you should mention a game where you can multi-class and turn your warrior into a mage if you sacrifice enough warrior abilities. Need I also mention that skills in NWN are basically the same as King's Bounty ability trees? You have strong benefits in your own class skills but other ones aren't blocked off, just harder to get.

Let me name some other good RPGs that you may have heard of that don't enforce rigid classes, instead letting you choose based on a system of advantages vs drawbacks: Arcanum, Deus Ex, Diablo 1, Fallout. All of them better than NWN IMO.

Randomness of items/reward/units available makes every play a bit more different but in the end many of skills lvled up are same for every class.
In AP/CW i had pet dragon on 60lvl with each class, why is that possible if only warrior should be able to advance to highest rage skill lvl`s ? And mage is only class able to make ridiculous amounts of dmg with spells, and that is OK but limit other 2 classes in same way.

Who told you that only warrior should have the highest rage skills? Can only mages use the highest spells? No. Are mages still a lot better at using spells than warriors? Yes.

Without unique skills mages are still vastly different from warriors. If you think otherwise then go do a playthrough where you kill things with spell damage on your warrior. I'll sit and wait.

Originally Posted by Fatt_Shade

This is with expectation you play first. What if there is opponent with all archer 100% crit (+mass precision spell = +30% dmg to all) army and high initiative that decimate your troops in first turn ? This isnt possible so far, because there is no multiplayer of any kind (not even death match But i think (and i `ll do it in my game) that more unique and difference between classes should be implemented in game.

You don't need to make more differences. Different amounts of runes for each class is already a huge difference. Every skill is different. A mage skill is vastly less expensive for a mage than a warrior.

[camelotcrusade]

So I have been enjoying my Skald and finally sunk points into level 2 Edda - a 10% power increase - just to see if it was multiplicative or additive.

Sadly, it is multiplicative and it makes almost NO difference for the points you spend on it. Most of the songs have their activation chance go up by 1% when you do this. Some show literally no change. For 1/8/1. I mean, come on. I guess I should be glad it's useful out of the gate and doesn't require 3 levels to be worth it, but I'm a little insulted by the "upgrade."

Also, RE balance I am really feeling the impact of alchemy being wizard only. It's much harder to be a hybrid wizard than it used to be (I used to take every spell and still have enough runes to max level most of my favorites). Not complaining, just noting the change seems impactful.

[Zechnophobe]

Originally Posted by camelotcrusade

So I have been enjoying my Skald and finally sunk points into level 2 Edda - a 10% power increase - just to see if it was multiplicative or additive.

Sadly, it is multiplicative and it makes almost NO difference for the points you spend on it. Most of the songs have their activation chance go up by 1% when you do this. Some show literally no change. For 1/8/1. I mean, come on. I guess I should be glad it's useful out of the gate and doesn't require 3 levels to be worth it, but I'm a little insulted by the "upgrade."

Also, RE balance I am really feeling the impact of alchemy being wizard only. It's much harder to be a hybrid wizard than it used to be (I used to take every spell and still have enough runes to max level most of my favorites). Not complaining, just noting the change seems impactful.

Alchemy is completely valuable now. Crystals give you wanderer scrolls, and they also let you create items (which you could, for instance, feed to your Valkyrie ladies).

I got a plan that lets me build a demon tongue, which gives, IIRC, rage and crit chance to demons. As a skald I could make three and equip them all... Would give me a crap ton of rage and crit chance!

[Fatt_Shade]

@Loopy

If you sacrifice enough of your other abilities to do so, yes they should be able to do that. Mass haste and mass weakness? TWO level three spells? If you manage to get enough magic runes then you deserve to use that.

Why would warrior deserve that ? Dont we already have enough advantage on AI controlled troops as it is.

I've probably played more RPGs then you can name. Funny that you should mention a game where you can multi-class and turn your warrior into a mage if you sacrifice enough warrior abilities. Need I also mention that skills in NWN are basically the same as King's Bounty ability trees? You have strong benefits in your own class skills but other ones aren't blocked off, just harder to get.

Good for you, and NWN was just first to come to mind. But there is available lots of classes to chose on start and making game more versatile with multi/class build with some unique benefits from it and it was great. But in KB there is only 3 classes with each own benefits, why confusing them more with so much similar skills and only 2 different in each hero class (as i said of 45 skills only 2 unique per class, not nearly enough to make each class different experience playing).

Who told you that only warrior should have the highest rage skills? Can only mages use the highest spells? No. Are mages still a lot better at using spells than warriors? Yes.

Game developer told me that with their skill distribution in first game. In the Legend warrior had Anger which gave him best rage generation=enough rage to improve rage spirits to highest lvls, mage had Alchemy and High magic and he DID have opportunity to improve spells to highest lvl as you asked paladin and warrior could take couple of 3rd lvl spells but that`s it ,not nearly as mage class. So spell domain was (still is) mage class, why not rage domain for warrior (was only in tLegend not in AP/CW not here in WotN)? That was my idea.
In AP/CW there was no difference in rage skills, so every class had same choice and on pet dragon 60 lvl they were all same, while on other hand no class could compare to mage in spell dmg output. Why would paladin/mage have same dmg with rage skills like warrior? Why would mage with double cast of awake dragon be possible to use rage skills x3 times per turn if warrior/paladin cant. I once did this just for fun : got helm with antena used mad rage+mana flow and cast 3 lightning orb in every turn just to see what will happen. I had 10 of them hovering around before i run out of mana for waking dragon any more, and this was around 20lvl hero so later maybe could have more of them with more mana. So you tell me, could warrior ever do this? NO, and rage skills are supposedly his specialty.
And you contradict yourself here. Mages are best in spells, so why warrior arent best in rage skills?
WotN give every class skill to 60% double use rage amulet, but only mage can double cast spells. How is that class difference?

What i said to make 4 unique skills/hero class i did in my game, but just said that it should be considered since now to much is common in classes to make playthrough unique for 3 different plays.