Spit/109 sea level speed comparisons in 1.08 beta patch

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

the Spit WILL loose that turn contest.
.

How exactly? the Spit wil still be able to turn at a higher rate of turn but it won't maintain that speed, if it's behind the 109 it will keep it in it's sights and if its ahead the 109 won't get a bead and will just whizz past, you must realize the Spit will have a better 'rate' of turn than the 109 at all speeds.

[JtD]

With a fixed trim at a constant engine power setting, the trim speed of an aircraft is not going to remain constant over altitude. 400 IAS seems to be a pretty high cruising speed at 5 km for a 109E.

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

How exactly?

Well let's start with the fact that it turns better already at 400 kph. Everything Spit does, the 109 can do better at these speeds.

the Spit wil still be able to turn at a higher rate of turn but it won't maintain that speed,

That's an unsustained turn. What you forget that in an unsustained turn, the 109 will still loose less speed than the Spit at high speeds, because the basics (=more excess thrust) did not change.

if it's behind the 109 it will keep it in it's sights and if its ahead the 109 won't get a bead and will just whizz past,

If it's behind the 109 and slows down to match the turn the 109 will get out of range quickly and the 109 will be at superior E state.. if the 109 is behind yes the 109 will just wizz past, and at a superior E state. Then cat-and-mouse begins...

you must realize the Spit will have a better 'rate' of turn than the 109 at all speeds.

Simply no. At high speeds it cannot mach the 109 sustained turn, and it will loose more speed in an unsustained turn if the 109 also goes to unsustained turn.

You see the turn rate advantage is only there if the 109 maintains a sustained turn and the Spit goes for an unsustained turn -> superior E for the 109 and you do not want to fight a 109 with

And unfortunately the Spit cannot beat the 109 at high speed in unsustained turns either. The 109 can match an unsustained turn at any time AND loose less speed in the process. If the pilot has his wits about him he will take advantage of this and use the superior E before speed gets really slow where it's Spitfire territory.

The slower Spitfire (at +6) cannot match the faster 109 (any plane) at high speed turns. At least, not for long.

[JtD]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

That's an unsustained turn. What you forget that in an unsustained turn, the 109 will still loose less speed than the Spit at high speeds, because the basics (=more excess thrust) did not change.

No, this isn't necessarily an unsustained turn. The same way the 109 has to give up level speed to turn, the Spitfire has, and for each change in turn rate, the speed loss of the 109 is higher, or for each loss of speed, the Spitfires turn rate change is larger. If the 109 settles at a load factor or turn rate, the Spitfire can do the same, at a lower speed.

It really sums up to that the 109's biggest advantage is in flying straight and level, it will remain competitive throughout the high & medium speed range, with the advantage always decreasing. All this, mind you, at sea level against a 6.25lb boosted Spitfire I, which is as good as it gets for the 109.

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by JtD

The same way the 109 has to give up level speed to turn, the Spitfire has, and for each change in turn rate, the speed loss of the 109 is higher

Because?

or for each loss of speed, the Spitfires turn rate change is larger.

Because?

If the 109 settles at a load factor or turn rate, the Spitfire can do the same, at a lower speed.

Yes.

It really sums up to that the 109's biggest advantage is in flying straight and level,

The 109s biggest advantage is its overall smaller drag, more powerful engine, and higher power to weight ratio, good harmony of controls (at least IRL) and superior near-stall handling IMHO.

it will remain competitive throughout the high & medium speed range, with the advantage always decreasing.

Agreed.

All this, mind you, at sea level against a 6.25lb boosted Spitfire I, which is as good as it gets for the 109.

Certainly. But then again, we haven't touched into the realm of 1.45ata WEP or a DB 601N under the hood. Or deploying flaps.

[JtD]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

Because?

It's in the physics. If you look (very closely in well hidden places) at the turn calc spreadsheet I attached the other day, you can see that near each planes top speed, the 109 gains ~1.1 °/s turn rate for every m/s of speed given up, while the Spitfire gains about ~1.5 °/s turn rate for every m/s given up. This means in example, for a 9°/s turn rate the 109 loses ~29 km/h, while the Spitfire loses ~22 km/h and has thus narrowed the gap by ~7 km/h. It's a trend that continues until at low speeds the Spitfire becomes superior.

---

And can we all, now that we have a chance for few days of peace, just once try to get along with each other in a civilised way? No polemics, arrogance, sarcasm and all these little annoyances for say the next 5 days?