Stability and Control characteristics of the Early Mark Spitfires

[Al Schlageter]

The vast majority of Typhoon losses due to the loss of the tail happened over Germany areas

Is the opposite. In the Thomas/Shore book on the Typhoon/Tempest there is 18 losses listed as 'sf' (structural failure) of which 14 were over Britain and only 2 of these past Jan 1944.

[Al Schlageter]

Originally Posted by NZtyphoon

Serial Numbers please, and please scan and post the relevant pages. How many of them were elderly airframes in OTUs?

There was no Spitfire I serialed X4228

I don't know where he got that serial number from. Notice it skips the numbers between 4189 and 4230.

X4009 X4038 30
X4051 X4070 20
X4101 X4110 10
X4159 X4188 30
X4231 X4280 50
X4317 X4356 40
X4381 X4390 10
X4409 X4428 20

X4471 X4505 35
X4538 X4562 25
X4585 X4624 40
X4641 X4685 45
X4708 X4722 15
X4765 X4789 25

X4815 X4859 45
X4896 X4945 50
X4988 X4997 10

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Bending was a problem in the BoB. The RAF wanted it investigated and fixed. In August 1940, they provided a test aircraft to meet that goal.

evidence please. which airframe and supporting evidence as to what test the plane was to meet

Also still waiting for your piles of wings waiting to be fixed in BOB

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Al Schlageter

Is the opposite. In the Thomas/Shore book on the Typhoon/Tempest there is 18 losses listed as 'sf' (structural failure) of which 14 were over Britain and only 2 of these past Jan 1944.

I stand corrected

[Al Schlageter]

Originally Posted by Glider

I stand corrected

Nice of you to admit you were incorrect Glider, unlike another person who does a 'song and dance' to deflect the discussion away from his error.

[Crumpp]

There was no Spitfire I serialed X4228

Typo...X4268.

I hope you do not sit and wonder when others show you the same courtesy you show them.

It should not be a mystery.

Did you locate X4181?? The one used for 100 Octane testing in August of 1940 in 616 Squadron?

[NZtyphoon]

To reiterate: From http://www.spitfires.ukf.net/ which is well researched and more accessible than M & S:

Mk Is less than 1 year old lost through structural failure in flight:

K9977 Ia 191 EA MII FF 16-5-39 602S 18-5-39 lost wing during aerobatics crashed Haddington CE Lothian 30-12-39 Sgt Bailey killed SOC 11-2-40

N3120 Ia 391 EA MIII FF 29-10-39 6MU 3-11-39 266S 20-1-40 broke up in test flight to alt Pilot Gleed thrown out crashed 14.40hrs Littleport Cambs 18-2-40 SOC 22-2-40

X4613 Ia 1233 EA MIII FF 15-10-40 6MU 15-10-40 ? 603S 17-10-40 266S 24-10-40 Lost wing and crashed Gedney Hill Lincs CE 2-3-41 SOC 20-3-41

R6692 Ia 746 EA MIII FF 3-6-40 6MU 5-6-40 609S 7-6-40 Overstressed attacking Ju88 CE 12-8-40 SOC 2-9-40

Mk Is - older airframes on OTUs lost through structural failure in flight:

R6777 Ia 803 EA MIII FF 21-6-40 8MU 22-6-40 65S 12-7-40 C2 ops 30-7-40 GAL 616S 20-8-40 72S 2-9-40 92S 3-11-40 145S 4-2-41 AFDU 6-3-41 152S 13-3-41 SF H 10-4-41 57OTU 4-8-41 61OTU 3-1-42 Broke up in air and crashed Blackbill Glam FAC3 8-7-42

R6882 Ia 840 EA MIII FF 1-7-40 (CMG) 6MU Brize Norton 28-7-40 cannon wing fitt 7OTU 3-9-40 AFDU Duxford 11-1-41 R-RH 10-2-41 Cv Vb M45 92S 'QJ-N' 9-3-41 609S 30-8-41 Broke up in air and abandoned 2.5m NE of East Stoke Notts FACE 10-1-42 SOC 17-1-42

R7064 Ia 1431 EA MIII FF 5-2-41 9MU 6-2-41 411S 5-7-41 52OTU 23-11-41 struct damaged in spin crashed and hit fence nr Aston Down CE 25-3-42 SOC 3-4-42

X4234 Ia 1031 EA MIII FF 15-8-40 8MU 16-8-40 609S 24-8-40 damaged combat P/O Staples safe 27-9-40 AST 66S 13-10-40 57OTU 1-11-40 FACB 27-6-42 ros wing fail in spin crashed Alsager Cheshire CE 25-9-42

X4854 Ia 1351 EA MIII FF 14-12-40 MU 16-12-42 53OTU into sea nr Dunraven Castle Thought struct fail of stbd wing 2-1-43


Less than 1 year old lost through structural failure in dive:

K9838 Ia FF 6-1-39 41S 11-1-39 struct fail in dive Eryholme Yorks 16-3-39 SOC FH21.25 pilot killed

X4056 Ia 972 EA MIII FF 1-8-40 39MU 2-8-40 616S 30-8-40 Wing came off during dive 8m SE of Kirton-in-Lindsey FAC3 8-11-40 SOC 11-11-40

X4421 Ia 1138 EA MIII FF 12-9-40 8MU 13-9-40 66S 16-9-40 57OTU 21-10-40 steep dive from low cloud violent pull out high speed stall spun wing fail Pilot thrown clear but killed 15.15hrs crashed Northrop Flints 27-3-41 SOC cancel RAE 8-4-41 AST 13-5-41 rebuilt as Va M45 164S 29-4-42 FACE 18-8-42 (Rebuild suspect)

X4662 Ia 1260 EA MIII FF 1-11-40 9MU 8-11-40 485S 15-3-41 61OTU 25-6-41 131S 17-7-41 pull out steep dive stbd wing broke away crashed dbf pilot killed 12.07hrs Northallerton 27-7-41 SOC 1-8-41

X4680 Ia 1264 EA MIII FF 2-11-40 12MU 5-11-40 72S 17-1-41 CB ops 9-4-41 Scottish Aviation 123S 3-6-41 steep dive and pull out from cloud wings and tailplane broke off fus hit ground Kirknewton pilot killed 16.00hrs 15-6-41 SOC 1-7-41 FH77.50 RAE accident invest 20-8-41

Older airframes lost in dive:

N3191 Ia 432 EA MIII FF 23-11-39 24MU 2-12-39 234S 22-3-40 lost wings in dive crashed nr Truro Cornwall CE 16-1-41 AST 14-2-41 SOC 23-4-41

X4381 Ia 1122 EA MIII FF 6-9-40 6MU 10-9-40 152S 13-9-40 501S 'SD-J' 5-11-40 53OTU 7-7-41 stbd wing broke off after high speed dive out of cloud Tonpentre nr Pontypridd dbf CE 16.30hrs 6-8-41 SOC 21-8-41 RAE 30-1-42

Overstressed in storm at high altitude:

R7033 PRIV 1738 HEA M45 HAL 8-6-41 Cv PRIII Type C 1PRU Benson 7-8-41 loss of control in storm at high alt pilot thrown clear at 1000ft landed safe total wreck nr Bishops Stortford 5-10-41 remains to RAE for accident invest 1-42

17 with structural or wing failure, seven of which occurred during a dive or pulling out of a dive: See Henshaw

Six - N3191, R6777, R6882, R7064, X4234, X4854 - old, retired Spitfire Is in OTUs. One, R7033, was a PRU aircraft caught in a storm at high altitude.

Out of 17 structural failures three were recently delivered Spitfires: two, K9977 and N3120 had structural or wing failures before the Pilot's Notes were printed in July 1940 while K9838 broke up in a dive in early 1939 - it might well have been these three incidents which prompted the warnings to be printed.

Now let's see Crumpp's serial numbers and comments.

[Crumpp]

In the Thomas/Shore book on the Typhoon/Tempest there is 18 losses listed as 'sf' (structural failure) of which 14 were over Britain and only 2 of these past Jan 1944.

What a shame the Air Ministry did not have stability and control standards in place.

They would have realized something was not kosher when the aircraft motion did not align with predicted results.

[Crumpp]

which is well researched and more accessible than M & S:

And obviously not as in-depth as M&S.

[NZtyphoon]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

And obviously not as in-depth as M&S.

Prove it - scan and post the relevant pages instead of making useless comments.