Stability and Control characteristics of the Early Mark Spitfires

Crumpp · #1 08-03-2012, 03:57 AM

Quote:

Are you going to have a go at answering the the dive recovery question ?

I would not want to be in this situation with an aircraft that is neutral or unstable as you want to be able to pull precisely and quickly to the maximum acceleration the airframe can handle while reducing power.

We have had this discussion before on the "nibble", too. If you are in the nibble, you are NOT flying a maximum performance constant altitude turn.

What does that have to do with the ability of a pilot to precisely fly to the nibble and precisely back off to smooth air in order to maximize his aircraft's turn performance?

Crumpp · #2 08-03-2012, 04:02 AM

IvanK,

Your question really makes one wonder how many of those men did not return home because their airframe failed.

If you read Morgan and Shacklady, there is a listing of each serial number and its fate. There are early Mark Spitfires that were lost to "structural failure" or "wing came off in aerobatic flight".

Crumpp · #3 08-03-2012, 04:04 AM

IvanK,

Your question really makes one wonder how many of those men did not return home because their airframe failed.

If you read Morgan and Shacklady, there is a listing of each serial number and its fate. There are early Mark Spitfires that were lost to "structural failure" or "wing came off in aerobatic flight".

Most of the listing were just lost to unknown circumstances.

NZtyphoon · #4 08-03-2012, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crumpp

IvanK,

Your question really makes one wonder how many of those men did not return home because their airframe failed.

If you read Morgan and Shacklady, there is a listing of each serial number and its fate. There are early Mark Spitfires that were lost to "structural failure" or "wing came off in aerobatic flight".

Most of the listing were just lost to unknown circumstances.

Of course you are going to provide a listing of all Mk Is - with evidence -lost to structural and wing failure between 1939 and the middle of 1941 because after that most Mk Is ended up at OTUs.

Then you can list all Mk IIs lost to same cause - with evidence.

Then list all Mk Vs, knowing that from Quill several Spitfire Vs were lost due to bad loading at a squadron level in 1942.

As for "lost to unknown causes" this could mean anything and to use this category to prove anything is a waste of time

In fact how about we all do a search for early Spitfires lost to wing or structural failure?

From http://www.spitfires.ukf.net/ which is well researched and more accessible than M & S

Mk I

K - N series (first two production batches Spitfire I)

*K9838 Ia 51 EA MII FF 6-1-39 41S 11-1-39 struct fail in dive Eryholme Yorks 16-3-39 SOC FH21.25 pilot killed

K9977 Ia 191 EA MII FF 16-5-39 602S 18-5-39 lost wing during aerobatics crashed Haddington CE Lothian 30-12-39 Sgt Bailey killed SOC 11-2-40

N3120 Ia 391 EA MIII FF 29-10-39 6MU 3-11-39 266S 20-1-40 broke up in test flight to alt Pilot Gleed thrown out crashed 14.40hrs Littleport Cambs 18-2-40 SOC 22-2-40

*#N3191 Ia 432 EA MIII FF 23-11-39 24MU 2-12-39 234S 22-3-40 lost wings in dive crashed nr Truro Cornwall CE 16-1-41 AST 14-2-41 SOC 23-4-41

Four

R Series:

R6692 Ia 746 EA MIII FF 3-6-40 6MU 5-6-40 609S 7-6-40 Overstressed attacking Ju88 CE 12-8-40 SOC 2-9-40

#R6777 Ia 803 EA MIII FF 21-6-40 8MU 22-6-40 65S 12-7-40 C2 ops 30-7-40 GAL 616S 20-8-40 72S 2-9-40 92S 3-11-40 145S 4-2-41 AFDU 6-3-41 152S 13-3-41 SF H 10-4-41 57OTU 4-8-41 61OTU 3-1-42 Broke up in air and crashed Blackbill Glam FAC3 8-7-42

#R6882 Ia 840 EA MIII FF 1-7-40 (CMG) 6MU Brize Norton 28-7-40 cannon wing fitt 7OTU 3-9-40 AFDU Duxford 11-1-41 R-RH 10-2-41 Cv Vb M45 92S 'QJ-N' 9-3-41 609S 30-8-41 Broke up in air and abandoned 2.5m NE of East Stoke Notts FACE 10-1-42 SOC 17-1-42

$R7033 PRIV 1738 HEA M45 HAL 8-6-41 Cv PRIII Type C 1PRU Benson 7-8-41 loss of control in storm at high alt pilot thrown clear at 1000ft landed safe total wreck nr Bishops Stortford 5-10-41 remains to RAE for accident invest 1-42

#R7064 Ia 1431 EA MIII FF 5-2-41 9MU 6-2-41 411S 5-7-41 52OTU 23-11-41 struct damaged in spin crashed and hit fence nr Aston Down CE 25-3-42 SOC 3-4-42

Five

X4009 - X4997

*X4056 Ia 972 EA MIII FF 1-8-40 39MU 2-8-40 616S 30-8-40 Wing came off during dive 8m SE of Kirton-in-Lindsey FAC3 8-11-40 SOC 11-11-40

#X4234 Ia 1031 EA MIII FF 15-8-40 8MU 16-8-40 609S 24-8-40 damaged combat P/O Staples safe 27-9-40 AST 66S 13-10-40 57OTU 1-11-40 FACB 27-6-42 ros wing fail in spin crashed Alsager Cheshire CE 25-9-42

X4613 Ia 1233 EA MIII FF 15-10-40 6MU 15-10-40 ? 603S 17-10-40 266S 24-10-40 Lost wing and crashed Gedney Hill Lincs CE 2-3-41 SOC 20-3-41

*X4662 Ia 1260 EA MIII FF 1-11-40 9MU 8-11-40 485S 15-3-41 61OTU 25-6-41 131S 17-7-41 pull out steep dive stbd wing broke away crashed dbf pilot killed 12.07hrs Northallerton 27-7-41 SOC 1-8-41

*X4680 Ia 1264 EA MIII FF 2-11-40 12MU 5-11-40 72S 17-1-41 CB ops 9-4-41 Scottish Aviation 123S 3-6-41 steep dive and pull out from cloud wings and tailplane broke off fus hit ground Kirknewton pilot killed 16.00hrs 15-6-41 SOC 1-7-41 FH77.50 RAE accident invest 20-8-41

#X4854 Ia 1351 EA MIII FF 14-12-40 MU 16-12-42 53OTU into sea nr Dunraven Castle Thought struct fail of stbd wing 2-1-43

*X4381 Ia 1122 EA MIII FF 6-9-40 6MU 10-9-40 152S 13-9-40 501S 'SD-J' 5-11-40 53OTU 7-7-41 stbd wing broke off after high speed dive out of cloud Tonpentre nr Pontypridd dbf CE 16.30hrs 6-8-41 SOC 21-8-41 RAE 30-1-42

*X4421 Ia 1138 EA MIII FF 12-9-40 8MU 13-9-40 66S 16-9-40 57OTU 21-10-40 steep dive from low cloud violent pull out high speed stall spun wing fail Pilot thrown clear but killed 15.15hrs crashed Northrop Flints 27-3-41 SOC cancel RAE 8-4-41 AST 13-5-41 rebuilt as Va M45 164S 29-4-42 FACE 18-8-42 (Rebuild suspect)

Eight

17 with structural or wing failure, seven (*) of which occurred during a dive or pulling out of a dive: See Henshaw

Of the rest (#) six - N3191, R6777, R6882, R7064, X4234, X4854 - were old, retired Spitfire Is in OTUs. One, R7033, was a PRU aircraft caught in a storm at high altitude.

Out of 17 structural failures three were recently delivered Spitfires: two, K9977 and N3120 had structural or wing failures before the Pilot's Notes were printed in July 1940 while K9838 broke up in a dive in early 1939 - it might well have been these three incidents which prompted the warnings to be printed.

IvanK · #5 08-03-2012, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crumpp

I would not want to be in this situation with an aircraft that is neutral or unstable as you want to be able to pull precisely and quickly to the maximum acceleration the airframe can handle while reducing power.

We have had this discussion before on the "nibble", too. If you are in the nibble, you are NOT flying a maximum performance constant altitude turn.

What does that have to do with the ability of a pilot to precisely fly to the nibble and precisely back off to smooth air in order to maximize his aircraft's turn performance?

Its not a case of not "wanting" to be in the situation... Operational pilots often find themselves in situations they dont want to be in. The question put was quite specific, a Spitfire MKI no AOA gauges no accelerometers just you the pilot and your basic airframe.

How do you propose to "back off from the nibble" and by exactly how much? especially in an aeroplane with such lack of precision in the pitch circuit as you imply throughout this thread ? Your life is hanging in the balance, what cue do you have in your Spit MKI that you are doing your best ?

I think all thats going to happen with your technique is the "crump" sound as the Spitfire MKI impacts Terra firma. If you think you can back off the buzz/tickle/nibble and guarantee where you really are you are dreaming ! .... thats why buzz/tickle/nibble feel is taught to Miltary pilots world wide.