Soviet fighters and 4.12

[Z1024]

Originally Posted by Treetop64

As I said, "Limited field trials..." - read the post. They were still only the same two or three original M-82 and M-71 prototypes, however, and saw no actual combat, i.e. they never fired thier guns in anger at another aircraft.

They flew 10-11 real combat missions and shot down or damaged one plane, the only limitation was to fly over soviet controlled territory to make sure the plane will never be captured by Germans. Obviously they didn't risk entering a TnB fight - strictly high speed passes. They never encountered FW190s during these combat trials. It's in that article I mentioned.

[gaunt1]

I think the weapons of soviet planes should be rectified too.
My observations, although they might be subjective. Please correct me if Im wrong.

7.62mm ShKAS: it should consume ammunition more quickly. But in exchange, it should do more damage.
12.7mm UB: it should do more damage. It was the most effective weapon of its class. According to the site linked below, it was almost as powerful as an MG151/15.
20mm ShVAK and B20: their ammunition should be weaker. The 20x99R cartridge was one of the weakest of its class

There is a site that perfectly describes the differences between various WW2 guns:
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

[EJGr.Ost_Caspar]

Interesting stuff here! Be assured, that it had been recognised.

EDIT: hm... my posting was in fact aimed for the other thread http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=32576, but also here is intersting info.

[1984]

Originally Posted by gaunt1

I think the weapons of soviet planes should be rectified too.

7.62mm ShKAS: it should consume ammunition more quickly. But in exchange, it should do more damage.

well, maybe here you are right - how i hear, damage of 7.62x54r for shkas (or just "of shkas") in game too low, compared with mg-17...

why, don't know... balance etc, maybe... or just mistake...


about berezin 12.7 mm, and shvak - maybe, 12.7 mm should be little more powerfull (not sure)... shvak, in total, not so powerful like mg151/20 or hispano - so, all good here (attached, hits in wing of 109, famous picture and very similar with game, i think)...

but, if for game in future DT include more planes etc for soviet-japanese war'39 (халхин-гол/номонган) and soviet-finnish winter war'40, for shvak of this period (for i-16p etc) need create new shell with 2-3 g of HE (something like this, forgot correct weight of HE now, and in total early shell for shvak very similar with HE-shell for berezin 12.7 mm)...

maybe, i'm little wrong, too long ago i read info about this...

[gaunt1]

Soviet 12.7mm should be much more powerful than now. It was far superior to the Browning .50, and almost at the level of the MG151/15. But ShVAK & B20 should be weaker. It had quite low HEI content for the total weight of the projectile.

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

[1984]

Originally Posted by gaunt1

Soviet 12.7mm should be much more powerful than now. It was far superior to the Browning .50, and almost at the level of the MG151/15.

compare with what?

well, maybe, .50 too good (i remember here, before some patch .50 was more powerful), but berezin and mg151 very similar and not bad, and mg151 little better... what REALLY wrong here, ub vs. mg151?

mg151 - 2-4,5 g of HE, 960 m/s, 700 shots in min...

ubs - 2-4 g of HE, 860, 700-800...

AP of mg151 little better, especially, "H-Pzgr"...

and? i don't see here any really "wow" in compare with 15 mm, similar guns, but of course it's really good weapon (like in your link - "The gas operated UB was the best gun of its class, lighter (21kg) and faster firing than any other guns with similar ammunition performance.") - and remember this if you want start talking about "bad" soviet weapon of fighters, for example, "only ubs and shvak" (+ this is why i'm talking about differences of yak-7b without gargrot and yak-9, and about yak-3 before 13 serie)...


+ interesting thing about effectiveness -

Пули БЗТ, БЗФ, МДЗ обеспечивали возгорание не только топлива, но и конструктивных материалов самолета, созданных на основе алюминиево-магниевых сплавов.

you know materials of german fighters?

But ShVAK & B20 should be weaker. It had quite low HEI content for the total weight of the projectile.

now shvak weaker than mg151/20, hispano and vya-23, where you see problem here? or it's like what you written here usually?

and mg151/20 better mainly with "miningeschoss", but this special shell and not so obviously, what, mg really more better with this wunderwaffe than shvak (don't want write here now some rumors about this), and other german shells very similar with shvak shells in fact...

early HE shell for shvak (before 40-41) - 2.75 g of he...

late HE shell for shvak (after 41) - 5-6 g of he...


well, i think, maybe need some little corrects, but general problem - all 20mm guns like lasers...

second problem - 37 mm shells of ns-37 and m-4 (maybe, 30 mm too) not so deadly (too much "blank hits" of HE shells without any damage, sometimes help only AP hits... remember, for first yak-9t ONLY he shells, and later can only he too sometimes... and? you understood?)...

maybe, something more...


+ about n-37 and yak-9ut (i can't find time for read this book) -

Согласно описанию пушки, сделанному Нудельманом, темп стрельбы 400 выстр./мин, а средний темп на испытаниях в октябре 1944 г. 311 выстр./мин.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by gaunt1

Soviet 12.7mm should be much more powerful than now. It was far superior to the Browning .50, and almost at the level of the MG151/15. But ShVAK & B20 should be weaker. It had quite low HEI content for the total weight of the projectile.

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

It's hard to say exactly but relatively speaking, and given the age of the simulators damage model (some aspects of the aircraft are not part of the DM), I think the damage done is fairly accurate.

I really don't think the Berezin needs to be any more powerful than it is. It's already just a hair off of some 20mm cannons. One second worth of shooting and you can de-tail some earlier Bf109 versions and de-wing just about anything smaller than a bomber and that's with one nose mounted gun. IMHO it's probably better than the MG151/15 in my experience.

The ShVAK 20mm is probably a distant third with a toss up between Hispano 20mm and MG151/20 so that really doesn't need much adjusting either. Back in the day the MG151/20 was probably third place but that was until it was belted with the Mine rounds and after that it easily is the most destructive. Especially from an explosive standpoint. The Hispano hits harder from a kinetic point of view which makes sense given it's higher muzzle velocity and larger shell.

[JV44Priller]

I still think its odd that with a German 30mm cannon I can destroy a bomber in 1-2 shots. But a Yak-9U took 2 30mm shots directly in the tail from a distance of .38-.45km and kept flying.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by JV44Priller

I still think its odd that with a German 30mm cannon I can destroy a bomber in 1-2 shots. But a Yak-9U took 2 30mm shots directly in the tail from a distance of .38-.45km and kept flying.

Or it explodes in one shot... lots of outliers...

[gaunt1]

Originally Posted by IceFire

... One second worth of shooting and you can de-tail some earlier Bf109 versions...

I dont know if the DM of the 109 is right or not, but I did it many times with just a pair of ShKAS. But the ShKAS isnt more powerful than other similar machineguns, like the MG17. Maybe if it would consume ammunition quicker...