Horton

[tools4fools]

your average history channel watcher what was it about the Me262 design that made it 'so revolutionary'

I doubt your average history channel fellow will even know the advantage of a swept wing design over a straight wing design.
He will only claim that it was the worlds first jet fighter.

Still you are very biased as I see it, forget about German grand parents, has nothing to do with it, neither have skinheads, it's simply that you continue pondering on one design aspect of a plane taken in its initial stages and ignoring all other steps in the design of the plane taken later on plus its development and testing and results going into the design before finally going into production.

And that is biased.
As is bringing in Goddard and Hayes, turning them into the real heroes, while everything else is nil.

You keep absolutely ignoring facts, to remind you:

- high speed wind tunnel tests from 39 AVA Goettingen
- 262 with steep swept wing at 40 degrees tested in wind tunnel 41
- high speed trial of 262 with 18.5 wing sweep showing advantage over straight wing
- Me 262 swept inner wing added in 42-43, not for CoG

Silence to all this that doesn't fit your view.
The 262 was a straight wing - correct for CoG swept wing - production design. 3 steps that's it.

You keep contradicting yourself as well:

Which gave them a good 5+ year RnD head start over the rest of the world.

While above you mention they:

- didn't understand it as well as thought
- they didn't see it as being a great benefit
- as they studied highly swept wings they would have have no clue about lesser swept wings

Which are nothing but assumptions from your side btw.
But at the end they had 5yrs RnD head stat, but somehow they didn't know what they were doing? Now how does that fit?
Not at all.

It makes about as much sense as the V2/rocket tech not being bothersome to the Allieds but still worth sending 600 bombers and capturing the design team.

But I don't see we're getting anywhere, you just keep repeating that one thing, loud and often as they say on that site quoted by you.
+++++

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree than

I am just glad I was able to educate you on the FACT that the wings were swept to correct the cg and not an intentional part of the design from the start to take advantage of some swept wing knowledge the Germans had.

[tools4fools]

and not an intentional part of the design from the start to take advantage

Indeed. Not from the start.
But that leaves room that in its later design stages more was implemented into the design after further research and trial with prototypes.


And as being the first swept wing jet fighter in service it was certainly a remarkable airplane and achievement.
+++++

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by tools4fools

Indeed. Not from the start.
But that leaves room that in its later design stages more was implemented into the design after further research and trial with prototypes.

The point at which this became apparent to the Germans is debatable..

But it is clear to all that at some point before the end of the war the Germans where aware of it.. Clearly based on some of the preliminary designs the Germans had on paper.. Which is preliminary with a CAPITAL P and a far Far FAR cry from prototype..

But the problem is some want to give the Germans credit for this knowledge a good ten years prior to when they obtained it.. Which only feed that notion that the Germans were special in some way

For example.. Take the STORMBIRDS quote.. They say the Germans knew about it during the 30s.. They convently leave out the details of it being 1939.. And they convently leave out how long it can take theories on paper to make their way into production. Some think this can happen faster during war, and in some cases it does, but in some cases it does not. That is to say if it aint broke don't fixed it attitude Lockheed had with the P38 receiving upgrades. Where as the Germans were desperate so I think I could see them 'giving it a go' with their fingers crossed approach.

Originally Posted by tools4fools

And as being the first swept wing jet fighter in service it was certainly a remarkable airplane and achievement.

Agreed 100%

Only some like me see it as a logical evolution and not a revolution.. As I noted before.. You will be hard pressed to see any aspects of the Me262 designs being used in post war FIGHTERS.. Sure you will see a lot of post war BOMBERS slinging engine pods under the wings.. Which makes one take pause and wonder if Hitler was not the smartest guy in the room when he wanted to make it a fast attack bomber! You know that 'other' Me262 myth that the Me262 was some how delayed by Hitler for wanting to put bomb racks on the Me262.. The truth is the Me262 was delayed due to the engines.. Because the only other way to 'spin' that is to say it took the Germans two years to figure out how to put bomb racks on the Me262! And I think we can both agree that the Germans were more than capable of doing that!!

[tools4fools]

You will be hard pressed to see any aspects of the Me 262 designs being used in post war FIGHTERS.

Hard pressed? Not at all.
Jet engines and (further developed) swept wings?
So out of 3 design points most still have two up to this day in one form or another. Not bad, no?


Some in wing engines are outright sexy:
http://www.fas.org/irp/program/colle...95-42883-4.jpg


But overall I would say 'and so what?'

You see hardly any twin boom designs in post war fighters. Does that make the P-38 less significant?

Why is all of the sudden just one design point (engine pods) part important?
Isn't it the overall design product we are looking at?

The DH Comet was the first passenger jet airliner. It had the engines in the wing root, which no (? maybe there's an odd one?) passenger planes of today have, but does that make the fact any lesser?
Nope, the introduction of the passenger jet, as happened with the Comet, changed air travel to the day.

Which is preliminary with a CAPITAL P and a far Far FAR cry from prototype..

That looks like going into the direction of a prototype:
http://tanks45.tripod.com/Jets45/His...1101/P1100.jpg
Certainly wasn't intended to be a toy, no?


That looks a bit odd but sure enough like a real plane:
http://tanks45.tripod.com/Jets45/His...87/Ju287V1.jpg

They say the Germans knew about it during the 30s..

Well, there apart from the AVA wind tunnel research from 39 and onward there was Busemanns paper published in 35 (obviously worked on before publishing in 35).

Only some like me see it as a logical evolution and not a revolution.

An evolution that created a revolution? As it always goes? Such things usually don't happen overnight.
Those 'revolutions' are milestones along the evolution. The 262 was sure one of them.

Is a B2 a revolution? I would say yes, first flying wing stealth bomber, that sure is a mile stone. But for sure it is an evolution as well.
+++++

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by tools4fools

Hard pressed? Not at all.
Jet engines and (further developed) swept wings?
So out of 3 design points most still have two up to this day in one form or another. Not bad, no?

3 design points?

Must be that new math?

Because I only see you listing two..

1) Jet engines
2) Swept wings

As for Jet engines.. The Brits and US had there own designs that were in service before the end of WWII.. So not sure how that would be considered as a design aspect of the Me262 that was used in later fighters

As for swept wings.. As noted the swept wings of the Me262 were to correct the cg.. So not sure how that would be considered as a design aspect of the Me262 that was used in later fighters

Originally Posted by tools4fools

Some in wing engines are outright sexy:
http://www.fas.org/irp/program/colle...95-42883-4.jpg

Ah.. I see where you are confused!

1st the SR71 is not a FIGHTER
2nd the engines are mounted inside the wing, not under the wings in pods

So maybe you missed the part where I was talking about the Me262 being a dead end design..

In that you would be HARD PRESSED to find any post war FIGHTERS that mounted the engines under the wings in pods.. And note that I stated you would and could find bombers with engines mounted under the wings in pods

Which by the way, the engines being mounted under the wings in pod was the ONE aspect of the Me262 that was truly it's own 'thing'! And not used in post war jet fighter designs.. I won't say none, in that I seem to recall someone posting a pic of a post war Russian jet fighter that may have had engine pods under the wings.. But as we all know, in the jet engine race, the Russians were the farthest behind which is why they copied not only the German jet engines but the Britt jet engines

[tools4fools]

You will be hard pressed to see any aspects of the Me 262 designs being used in post war FIGHTERS.

Remeber, you were asking for any 262 design?

3 design points?

Errr, yes, obvious as you had already mentioned one - engine in pods.

Plus jet engines, plus swept wing, makes indeed 3.

However you asked for those only that are still in todays designs, and thats two, jet engine and swept wing.

So here we go again:
3 in total minus 1 not in current designs anymore equals 2 still in current designs.

That's the 2 I mentioned.

3-1=2

Does that make sense to you?
Just read what I wrote. You asked for those that were still around.
I can't add the third one in the list.

As noted the swept wings of the Me262 were to correct the cg

As you noted to outer wing sweep was introduced for the CoG. Anything about inner wing sweep, additional research done while the plane was developed, flight tests, etc is stubbornly denied by you.
You just put your head in the sand.

So maybe you missed the part where I was talking about the Me262 being a dead end design

No it wasn't. Just because one aspect of this plane is not found anymore in more modern fighter does not mean it was a dead end.

That's just plain silly.

Because every pane will be a dead end sooner or later then.
Like the F-86.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_F-86_Sabre
Know of any plane of recent design that has engine intake at the front of the fuselage?
Nope, so dead end design.
On top of that they put those outdated 0.50 caliber on that plane. A fighter plane with 0.50 cal guns in 47, imagine, what a dead end design!

Two wings and a prop, dead end design as no more fighter of today have it:
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4139/4...6fd35c6c_z.jpg

Have seen any shoulder wings on a new fighter design lately? No?
So this is another dead end:
http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviatio.../2/1505224.jpg

And one day the stealth drone will turn all manned combat planes into dead end designs.
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/...e_1427413i.jpg

Boy, this is getting really silly.
+++++

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by tools4fools

Remeber, you were asking for any 262 design?

Actually I recall noting you would be hard pressed to find any post war JET FIGHTER with engines mounted under the wing in pods..

I later expanded that to say something along the lines that you would be hard pressed to find any 'unique' feature of the Me262 that was used in post war JET FIGHTER designs.. As in something no other FIGHTER had except the Me262. As noted, most history channel types would chime in with 'swept wings' but as we have already shown, the wings were swept to correct the cg.

Originally Posted by tools4fools

Errr, yes, obvious as you had already mentioned one - engine in pods. Plus jet engines, plus swept wing, makes indeed 3.

Errr, no, obvious as to I specifically asked for design aspects of the Me262 that ended up on post war JET FIGHTERS..

And I specifically noted that few if any post war JET FIGHTERS mounted their jet engines under the wings in pods..

So why you thought you could include that in your 'count' is beyond me!

Originally Posted by tools4fools

However you asked for those only that are still in todays designs, and that's two, jet engine and swept wing.

Nope.. re-read what I said.. I did not ask for design aspects that are still in use today.. I speciflly mentioned post war designs of the 50s and 60s.. I did go as far as to point out that the design aspect of the P80 intakes are still in use today when I pointed out that the P80 was ahead of its time with regards to the intakes.. Where I went onto point out the early 50s JET FIGHTER designs put the intake location at the nose of the plane.. Which changed over time to the P80 style.

Originally Posted by tools4fools

So here we go again:
3 in total minus 1 not in current designs anymore equals 2 still in current designs.

That's the 2 I mentioned.

3-1=2

Does that make sense to you?

No as I pointed out above.. The question put to you was what design aspects of the Me262 were used in post war JET FIGHTER designs of the 50s and 60s

With that said, we can NOT list..

• swept wings as a unique Me262 design aspect because we know they did that just to offset the cg

• engine pods under the wings as a unique Me262 design aspect because few if any post war JET FIGHTERS of the 50s and 60s did that

• Jet engines as a unique Me262 design aspect because the US and Brits both had JET FIGHTERS in use during WWII

So.. there really isn't any unique Me262 design aspect that was used in post war JET FIGHTER designs! Other than the flying tail I pointed out earlier.. but that was not unique to the Me262 the Fw190 had a similar setup.. Which leaves

3-3=0

Does that make sense to you?

If not than please.. Tell me which unique Me262 design aspect that was used in post war JET FIGHTER designs during the 50s and 60s

Originally Posted by tools4fools

As you noted to outer wing sweep was introduced for the CoG. Anything about inner wing sweep, additional research done while the plane was developed, flight tests, etc is stubbornly denied by you.
You just put your head in the sand.

I never denied it!

I just like to stick to things that can be proven..

With that said there is no proof that they swept the inner wing based on any high swept wing wind tunnel testing..

You have to remember, the Me262 was NOT designed to fly above 600mph.. It was a sub sonic plane..

And the high speed wind tunnel testing the Germans were working on was for planes flying faster than that.. Which is why they did not immediately make the connection that a swept wing is beneficial at sub sonic speeds.

Originally Posted by tools4fools

No it wasn't. Just because one aspect of this plane is not found anymore in more modern fighter does not mean it was a dead end. <snip>

That is my point..

No unique design aspect of the Me262 was used in post war JET FIGHTER designs that the US and Brits were not already doing!

The only thing that came close was the swept wings.. But as we now know they did NOT do that for high speed handling aspects.. They swept the wings to correct the cg

Originally Posted by tools4fools

Boy, this is getting really silly.

Agreed

Which is why I recommended a few posts back that we should just agree to disagree!

In the end I am glad that I was able to educate you on two things

1) The myth about the reason the Me262 wings were swept
2) The myth about the reason the Me262 was delayed

It is always a good day when I can find a way to undo what the history channel has managed to do to so many.. Granted the history channel can poison the minds of thousand with one half hour show.. Which means I have my work cut out for me! But you just have to keep chipping away at the German were supermen stone each and every chance you get!

True history is counting on us!

[baronWastelan]

And what seems to 'sell' these days is the notion that the Germans were in some way 'special' compared to the rest of the world. It was this notion (the master race) that got them into trouble in the first place! Combined that notion with the Americans love of the underdog and you end up with this very strange kind of German worship.

Why even bring nationalism into this discussion, "Ace"? Aren't there as many "Germanic" Americans as there are Germans in Germany?

[tools4fools]

You will be hard pressed to see any aspects of the Me 262 designs being used in post war FIGHTERS.

Sorry, but that's what you asked. Not unique aspects but any.

So jet engines it is and swept wings. Because that what it was the first swept wing jet fighter in combat service.
It don't even matter for what reason it was.

Well, we can start by ascertaining that the various high - speed trials with the Me 262 proved without a doubt the advantage of the swept wing over the straight wing

High speed trial proved the advantage of...
So latest when the thing flew they knew.
But then there's still the question of the inner wing.

And the high speed wind tunnel testing the Germans were working on was for planes flying faster than that.. Which is why they did not immediately make the connection that a swept wing is beneficial at sub sonic speeds.

Where did you get that from? One of your expert assumptions to fit into your narrow minded view as usual?

From wiki, source orig from Development of the Swept Wing 1935-1945, AIAA Library of Flight, 2010.

Hubert Ludewieg of the High-Speed Aerodynamics Branch at the AVA Göttingen in 1939 conducted the first wind tunnel tests to investigate Busemann's theory.[2] Two wings, one with no sweep, and one with 45 degrees of sweep were tested at Mach numbers of 0.7 and 0.9 in the 11 x 13 cm wind tunnel. The results of these tests confirmed the drag reduction offered by swept wings at transonic speeds.[2] The results of the tests were communicated to Albert Betz who then passed them on to Willy Messerschmitt in December 1939. The tests were expanded in 1940 to include wings with 15, 30 and -45 degrees of sweep and Mach numbers as high as 1.21.

http://www.amazon.com/German-Develop.../dp/1600867146

Another one of your very own myths goes down the drain.

But you just have to keep chipping away at the German were supermen stone each and every chance you get!

Nope, I just look at all the data around and make an informed opinion for myself.
You look at one little part of data around, make an uninformed and biased opinion, repeat it a thousand times like a little child to make sure it becomes the 'truth', create other myths and spread misinformation (as above) and bring in Americans who were the real super-heroes.

Repeat after me:

V2, first ballistic missile, ahead of its time
Me 262, first swept wing jet fighter in service, ahead of its time
++++++