Inaccurate performance data for BOB fighters in COD comparing to RL data

[NZtyphoon]

Originally Posted by fruitbat

Another great find Lane, much thanks

+1
It's interesting to note that there are nine Spitfire Is from the first 'K' and second 'N' production series; those delivered to 611 Sqn were:
N3050 Ia 338 EA MIII FF 28-9-39 8MU 30-9-39 611S 1-3-40
N3051 Ia 340 EA MIII FF 29-9-39 8MU 2-10-39 611S 1-3-40
N3052 Ia 341 EA MIII FF 30-9-39 8MU 2-10-39 611S 1-3-40
N3053 Ia 342 EA MIII FF 1-10-39 24MU 5-10-39 611S 25-1-40
N3054 Ia 343 EA MIII FF 2-10-39 24MU 5-10-39 611S 25-1-40
N3055 Ia 344 EA MIII FF 3-10-39 fitt TR1133 24MU 5-10-39 611S 25-1-40
N3056 Ia 345 EA MIII FF 2-10-39 24MU 5-10-39 611S 25-1-40
N3057 Ia 346 EA MIII FF 3-10-39 24MU 4-10-39 611S 25-1-40
N3058 Ia 347 EA MIII FF 4-10-39 24MU 7-10-39 611S 25-1-40
N3059 Ia 348 EA MIII FF 5-10-39 27MU 7-10-39 611S 25-1-40
N3060 Ia 349 EA MIII FF 4-10-39 27MU 7-10-39 611S 25-1-40
N3061 Ia 350 EA MIII FF 6-10-39 27MU 10-10-39 611S 15-2-40
N3062 Ia 351 EA MIII FF 6-10-39 27MU 10-10-39 611S 15-2-40
N3063 Ia 353 EA MIII FF 7-10-39 27MU 10-10-39 611S 15-2-40
N3064 Ia 352 EA MIII FF 6-10-39 27MU 10-10-39 611S 15-2-40
N3065 Ia 354 EA MIII FF 8-10-39 611S 16-3-40
N3066 Ia 355 EA MIII FF 9-10-39 9MU 11-10-39 611S 16-3-40
N3070 Ia 359 EA MIII FF 11-10-39 6MU 16-10-39 54S 18-11-39 611S 16-12-39
N3072 Ia 361 EA MIII FF 12-10-39 6MU 12-10-39 54S 18-11-39 611S 18-12-39
N3099 Ia 370 EA MIII FF 17-10-39 8MU 19-10-39 611S 21-1-40

From http://www.spitfires.ukf.net/p002.htm

When was 611 Sqn converted to 100 Octane fuel? Nine of them by 21/3/40...

K9963 Ia 176 EA MII FF 4-5-39 602S 8-5-39 AST 27-11-39 611S 4-6-40

All of these Spitfires had engines built well before AP1590/J.2-W was issued, showing that the required modifications on early Merlin IIIs were well in hand on 611 Sqn.

[Seadog]

Originally Posted by Seadog

I have repeatedly challenged you to produce evidence of even a single Spitfire/Hurricane 87 octane operational squadron combat sortie during the BofB. This should be an easy task if, as you contend, the majority of RAF FC Spitfire/Hurricane operational squadrons were using 87 Octane fuel.

So I'll issue the challenge again and again, until you answer it or admit that your contention is unsupported by the historical record.

I'm still waiting for a reply.

Again, where's the evidence for even a single combat sortie flown with 87 octane fuel? We have numerous sources that state full conversion to 100 octane and a complete lack of documentary evidence of 87 octane fuel use by Spitfire/Hurricane operational squadrons during the BofB.

Just one 87 octane sortie...and you can't provide evidence for even that. How pathetic..

[Al Schlageter]

Originally Posted by Seadog

Just one 87 octane sortie...and you can't provide evidence for even that. How pathetic..

Since it has been stated that there was a shortage of 100 fuel, I would like to see some references to a/c staying on the ground due to this shortage, like what happened in Germany late war.

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Al Schlageter

Since it has been stated that there was a shortage of 100 fuel, I would like to see some references to a/c staying on the ground due to this shortage, like what happened in Germany late war.

Personally I would like to see any evidence of :-
a) a shortage of fuel
b) of 16 squadrons
c) of which squadrons or bases
d) why this isn't mentioned in any official document, book, history
e) of the process in delivering the fuel
f) when the rest of FC were transfered to 100 octane

in fact anything Crumpp and Kururst claim

[Crumpp]

Glider,

Why don't you state exactly what it is in your mind that you think I am claiming, first?

This is what I have said and is backed up by the facts:

In July of 1940, 100 Octane fuel was not the standard fuel of Fighter Command.

[Al Schlageter]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Glider,

Why don't you state exactly what it is in your mind that you think I am claiming, first?

This is what I have said and is backed up by the facts:

In July of 1940, 100 Octane fuel was not the standard fuel of Fighter Command.

What facts would those be?

[NZtyphoon]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Glider,

Why don't you state exactly what it is in your mind that you think I am claiming, first?

This is what I have said and is backed up by the facts:

In July of 1940, 100 Octane fuel was not the standard fuel of Fighter Command.

Do you really need someone to explain to you what you have been claiming for several pages? Your story keeps changing so much that not even you can keep track of what you have been claiming...

[Crumpp]

You should go back and re-read the thread without your emotional involvement.

It is a fact that in July of 1940, 87 Octane fuel was Fighter Commands standard fuel. They were definitely in the process of adopting 100 Octane and had begun operating aircraft that could only use 100 Octane like the Spitfire Mk II.

The Operating Notes are the primary source for flying the aircraft.

Notes on the Merlin Engine are by the Air Ministry, RAF, and convention a legal document that defines the airworthy limitations of the aircraft.

The Operating Notes are equivalent to a Flight Information Manual and will reflect the airworthy limitations of the type certificate.

That is how it works. It is that simple and elegant. The hatred of me for pointing that out is irrational and immature. Maybe some of you should consider getting out and socializing more?

Bottom line, there is no need to construct great leaps of logic built around circumstantial evidence. Especially when that evidence is misinterpreted such as using Estabilishments as proof of quantity on hand.

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Glider,

Why don't you state exactly what it is in your mind that you think I am claiming, first?

This is what I have said and is backed up by the facts:

In July of 1940, 100 Octane fuel was not the standard fuel of Fighter Command.

To support that you need to give some awnsers to the questions you have avoided for the following reasons

Personally I would like to see any evidence of :-
a) a shortage of fuel
If there was no shortage then there would be no need to reduce the roll out

b) of 16 squadrons
Which squadrons or if you go down the it was 16 squadrons at any one time

c) of which squadrons or bases
This brings the difficult questions
i) If 100 octane was in short supply when did Drew a small satellite station in Scotland have 100 octane when the priority stations in the South East didn't
ii) At one point in the BOB Duxford had the big wing of five squadrons. Are you really saying that almost a fifth of the RAF supply was in one 12 group station?.

d) why this isn't mentioned in any official document, book, history
Simple request, why in the most documented air battle in history has no one picked this important factor up. Support your theory with some supporting documentation, not an off the wall conspiracy theory

e) of the process in delivering the fuel
As there is no mention of a any limitation in the distribution of 100 octane fuel in the Oil Committee papers who distributed it

f) when the rest of FC were transfered to 100 octane
As (e) there is no mention of any further roll out of 100 Octane in the Oil Committee papers so when was it done?

[JtD]

I've been looking at a few individual Hurricane plane histories. It is interesting to see that there are planes that came from a unit which has been documented to use 100 octane fuel, and went to a unit where there's no dedicated record, on occasion after having been to a maintenance unit. Imho, there's no reason to assume that the new squadrons weren't using 100 octane fuel as well, unless RAF logistics were run by brain dead people. If some folks around here have detailed resources, it might be worth a little more digging.