Why no E4s

[ATAG_Snapper]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

Don't be misleading. The Spit IIa has the advantage in level speed, climb, and turn.

Don't be misleading yourself. The 109 can bunt into a dive and regain the initiative. Currently the E3 can easily outclimb, outdive, outshoot, and outrun the Hurricane Rotol -- yet you overlooked that, too. The Red pilots don't complain about it; they learn to adapt and fly better as a result.

[ATAG_MajorBorris]

If all things are equal when two planes meet, there respective performance will favor the superior flight model but thats a fight that shouldnt be picked imho.

Back on topic: The short answer to why certain plane's are not in server1, because to many people fight about it.

[Richie]

Originally Posted by MajorBoris

If all things are equal when two planes meet, there respective performance will favor the superior flight model but thats a fight that shouldnt be picked imho.

Back on topic: The short answer to why certain plane's are not in server1, because to many people fight about it.

Was anyone here flying in Warclouds WF during the 109 G2 Spitfire Mk. IX 25 lb boost debocal? What a hoot that was and I was tearing my hair out all the way threw it. I guess each side thought the others aeroplane was too good. I wanted an F2,F4 or G2 to fly. The servers solution was make it a 1944 server witch almost everyone liked but no Spitfire Mk IX 25 lb boost and no dogfight 109s witch totally screwed me. I got lost and went to Spits VS 109s witch again imo was always the best server for full real play for IL-2 on the Hyperlobby.

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper

Don't be misleading yourself. The 109 can bunt into a dive and regain the initiative.

No, it cannot. It can bunt into a dive and return to base if and only if the Spit 2 pilot doesn't feel like chasing the 109 down, otherwise the Spit2 pilot only needs patience.

Currently the E3 can easily outclimb, outdive, outshoot, and outrun the Hurricane Rotol -- yet you overlooked that, too.

I didn't overlook that, because the Hurri and Spit 1a both have a sustained and instantaneous turn advantage over the 109. I also find it funny you mention climb rate, since the E-3 climbs better than the E-4. Should the E-3 be banned too?

What will you do when the Battle of Moscow expansion comes out and you have to rely on turn performance against the faster, better-armed Fw 190? Substitute the Yaks for Spitfires?

The Red pilots don't complain about it; they learn to adapt and fly better as a result.

Are you kidding? What servers are you flying where Red pilots aren't whining about cannons nonstop?

Edit: Sorry for dragging this off topic, I just can't stomach hypocrisy.

[ATAG_Snapper]

Hypocrisy? We happen to disagree but there's no call for insults, Captain Doggles.
I was sincere in my arguments and mistakenly thought you were likewise dealing in good faith.

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper

Hypocrisy? We happen to disagree but there's no call for insults, Captain Doggles.
I was sincere in my arguments and mistakenly thought you were likewise dealing in good faith.

When confronted with an argument that you can't refute, ignore it and make an appeal to emotion.

Standard.

[ATAG_Snapper]

Very true. Are you capable of discussion without resorting to insults?

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper

Very true. Are you capable of discussion without resorting to insults?

Hey listen, sorry you took it as an insult.

But I'm not going to retract the statement. I find it hypocritical to understate the advantages that the spit 2a has over the 109s, while in the same breath overstate the advantages that the 109s have over the Spit 1a and Hurri, and to neglect entirely the advantages that the Hurri and Spit 1a have over the 109s.

If you're interested in actually addressing the facts, then great.

Should the E-3 be banned? It climbs better than the E-4.

What will happen when Blue gets the Fw 190 and Red again has a turn advantage but not a speed or firepower advantage?

[ATAG_Snapper]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

Hey listen, sorry you took it as an insult.

But I'm not going to retract the statement. I find it hypocritical to understate the advantages that the spit 2a has over the 109s, while in the same breath overstate the advantages that the 109s have over the Spit 1a and Hurri, and to neglect entirely the advantages that the Hurri and Spit 1a have over the 109s.

If you're interested in actually addressing the facts, then great.

Should the E-3 be banned? It climbs better than the E-4.

What will happen when Blue gets the Fw 190 and Red again has a turn advantage but not a speed or firepower advantage?

Fair enough. We're all grown men here.

As I see it right now with the current FM's, if any model of 109 meets a Spit I/Ia or Hurricane DH5-20/Rotol in a 1 v 1 with both pilots having equal ability; the 109 will win because it can hold the initiative in the fight. It will climb above its quarry, the Red fighter will stall first if it tries to match it. The 109 can b & z at will, the Red fighter can only turn to avoid the firing pass. It can't outrun or outdive the 109, it's only a matter of time when the 109, diving out of the sun, will hit the Red fighter and win the fight. No 109 pilot in his right mind will engage a Red fighter in a turn & burn fight. Why would he? He just climbs out of reach, then picks his moment to descend and dispatch the RAF fighter turning below. The best the RAF fighter can do is dodge the tracers best he can until the 109 runs out of ammo -- which takes a lot longer than it does for a Spit or Hurri to run out.

Obviously, the Spitfire IIa is very capable of seizing the initiative in a 1 v 1, again assuming both pilots are of equal ability. I've recently done some flight test comparisons of the IIa vs the 1a, Rotol, and DH-520 in full throttle climbs to 10,000 feet and also some energy-loss comparos executing Immelman turns in the IIa, Ia, and Rotol. I posted the results over at the ATAG Forum, including video clips of the Immelman tests. Jeffrey Quill I ain't, but as expected the IIa outperformed the other models decisively, especially in the full throttle climbs. We were surprised (Red and Blue) that there was a such a large loss of energy in the IIa doing the Immelman -- on par with the Rotol. The conclusion was that the IIa is good, but its wings aren't coated in teflon. A good 109 pilot can defeat a mediocre IIa pilot, just as a good Ia pilot can defeat a mediocre 109 pilot in a 1 v 1 encounter.

What the Red pilots see in the IIa is "Finally, we have a fighter that can turn the tables". So many times a Red pilot is in a 1 v 1 co-energy encounter, only to have the 109 raise its nose, climb hard away, then hammerhead in the sun and dive back down with guns blazing. When Blue pilots respond by saying "Don't play into the 109's game; disengage, grab altitude yourself, then come back and do it to the 109". To which the Red pilots reply, "No....give us Spitfire IIa's and YOU disengage, grab some alt, and come back at us".

And so it goes.

But as MajorBorris pointed out to Ritchie earlier in this thread, the arguing will never end, it will just get more acrimonius. Taking out the E4 and IIa has seemed to even things up a bit. The Rotol, if flown well, is a good opponent to all models of the 109, the Ia struggles a bit. I'm aware that the auto-pitch on the E4 is over-hyped and that experten 109 pilots probably stick with manual pitch control for top performance. The perception on the Red side, rightly or wrongly, is that the auto-pitch turns even noob Blue pilots into aces overnight. I'm sure they wish that were true! Perhaps a greater concern was that the E4 uber-cannon could knock down a Blenheim before the Blennie had a chance to line up its target.

Sorry for the wall of words here. As with everyone, waiting on the patch to see what that brings us.

Past differences aside, good flying and look foward to seeing you over the Channel.

Snapper

[trumps]

Well Richie, i am guessing that after following how this thread is quickly degenerating you can see why the measures taken by those running servers has been done so

Craig