'Red Tails' New WW2 movie coming out ;)

[MD_Titus]

Originally Posted by 335th_GRExandas

Tuskegee airmen where very good only because they had racial issues.
They forced to prove things that days, just for the American society.

uh, what?

[Rjel]

I just love how U.S. pilots (actually all Allied pilots) contributions in WWII are continually trivialized by those fans of the Luftwaffe. Tell me, what was the better strategy? Flying high scoring Aces until they dropped or continually turning over your forces so you had combat trained instructors teaching those who followed? It obviously wasn't just loads of pilots and planes that turned the tide for the Allies. Remember the Russians had scads of both in 1941. It didn't do them much good, did it?

When the Americans first started combat over Europe, the Luftwaffe still enjoyed local air superiority most days. Also, there weren't a thousand P-51s concentrated in one area of Germany at any given time. By most accounts I've read, all the USAAF fighter groups were staggered while they performed their escort duties. One group would escort a given part of a bomber stream until relieved by a fresher group. So the idea that a mere 100 Germans stood in the face of a thousand P-51s is BS. They might have faced a 1000 bombers in any given mission, but those were also strung out of a 100 mile long line.

[Frequent_Flyer]

Originally Posted by Rjel

I just love how U.S. pilots (actually all Allied pilots) contributions in WWII are continually trivialized by those fans of the Luftwaffe. Tell me, what was the better strategy? Flying high scoring Aces until they dropped or continually turning over your forces so you had combat trained instructors teaching those who followed? It obviously wasn't just loads of pilots and planes that turned the tide for the Allies. Remember the Russians had scads of both in 1941. It didn't do them much good, did it?

When the Americans first started combat over Europe, the Luftwaffe still enjoyed local air superiority most days. Also, there weren't a thousand P-51s concentrated in one area of Germany at any given time. By most accounts I've read, all the USAAF fighter groups were staggered while they performed their escort duties. One group would escort a given part of a bomber stream until relieved by a fresher group. So the idea that a mere 100 Germans stood in the face of a thousand P-51s is BS. They might have faced a 1000 bombers in any given mission, but those were also strung out of a 100 mile long line.

Well said, but you won't convince the goofs on this forum. More Luftwaffe Aces were lost to western allies than the east, in fact the Luftwaffe suffered more losses in total to the west. In addition, the Luftwaffe fought over the own territory for nearly the whole western conflict. Once the Luftwaffe had to face superior aircraft and better pilots of the west, they were exposed .

The best pilots of the war were in the pacific. Fighting in much more difficult weather conditions over far larger distances, most of it being water( any one who has actually piloted a small craft over nothing but water can imagine the difficulty faced by pilots who were engaged in combat,disoreinted, low on fuel maybe wounded and needed to find your aircraft carrier with the navigational equipment used in the 1940's) . Landing and taking off of a carrier in good weather during daylight hours takes more skill than anything the Luftwaffe ever faced. Than try it in poor weather at night with little or no fuel as was the case for the USN in a number of engagements. This is to say nothing of the navigational skill needed a bit more challenging than flying barely past the border of your own country. Where if you bailed out there was a good chance you would rejoin your own unit by morning. In the Pacific , if you left your aircraft you more than likely were not seen from again.

[swiss]

this was so sentimental - you almost made me cry.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by Frequent_Flyer

Well said, but you won't convince the goofs on this forum. More Luftwaffe Aces were lost to western allies than the east, in fact the Luftwaffe suffered more losses in total to the west. In addition, the Luftwaffe fought over the own territory for nearly the whole western conflict. Once the Luftwaffe had to face superior aircraft and better pilots of the west, they were exposed .

I'm sorry man, but that sounds a bit biased. You're not keeping into account the sheer imbalance in numbers: the USAAF only could put up 10 to 50 times more planes than the Luftwaffe. Despite these tremendous numbers, there still are circa 100 German pilots with at least 100 kills in their combat career. Considering the conditions in which they fought, with inferior machines, lower numbers and difficult logistics, saying that the Allies had better pilots is ludicrous to say the least.

The best pilots of the war were in the pacific. Fighting in much more difficult weather conditions over far larger distances, most of it being water( any one who has actually piloted a small craft over nothing but water can imagine the difficulty faced by pilots who were engaged in combat,disoreinted, low on fuel maybe wounded and needed to find your aircraft carrier with the navigational equipment used in the 1940's) . Landing and taking off of a carrier in good weather during daylight hours takes more skill than anything the Luftwaffe ever faced. Than try it in poor weather at night with little or no fuel as was the case for the USN in a number of engagements. This is to say nothing of the navigational skill needed a bit more challenging than flying barely past the border of your own country. Where if you bailed out there was a good chance you would rejoin your own unit by morning. In the Pacific , if you left your aircraft you more than likely were not seen from again.

I would say that the worst conditions were in the Pacific, but the best pilots is based on what assumptions? Pacific pilots didn't have to face enormous flak barrages, being bounced by skilled wolfpacks etc.. sure, the conditions were harsher and the odds of surviving smaller if shot down over the sea, but this doesn't make them better pilots. As per navigation skills, they all relied on the same training and methods, if anything it's easier to navigate at sea because you can rely on good instruments or star navigation, and make less errors by spotting landmarks and confusing them with something else.

[MD_Titus]

Inferior machines stern? Woah, stop the presses, nerf the luftwaffe! For years we've had the mechanical superiority/numerical inferiority of the luftwaffe rammed down our throats and now you say it is a lie!

Mind.

Blown.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by MD_Titus

Inferior machines stern? Woah, stop the presses, nerf the luftwaffe! For years we've had the mechanical superiority/numerical inferiority of the luftwaffe rammed down our throats and now you say it is a lie!

Mind.

Blown.

When I say "inferior machines" I do not merely refer to performance or quality of the planes, but the fact that the flight lines suffered constantly of lack of spares, oils, fuel and ammunition.

Quality-wise there surely was a gap between American and German planes, the main differences being in the availability of materials for industrial production (the Mustang itself was made of at least 40 different kinds of alloys), but technology-wise stuff like the kommandgerat and the jet fighters put the Luftwaffe years ahead.

[swiss]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

When I say "inferior machines" I do not merely refer to performance or quality of the planes, but the fact that the flight lines suffered constantly of lack of spares, oils, fuel and ammunition.

Quality-wise there surely was a gap between American and German planes, the main differences being in the availability of materials for industrial production (the Mustang itself was made of at least 40 different kinds of alloys), but technology-wise stuff like the kommandgerat and the jet fighters put the Luftwaffe years ahead.

This discussion is pointless, those guys believe in Captain America being a historical fact.

From 1942 to 1944 the Germans had access to all the resources in Europe

That's an alternate history string or maybe you're just an idiot.
I wonder why my grandmother had(or was supposed) to donate all brass, copper and other rare metals her household could spare to the government.


edit:

They never had to worry about landing in enemy territory or running out of fuel.

Really? What were they doing in Africa? Fighting the Axis of evil? What relevance had Romania?
You're second...

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

Considering the conditions in which they fought, with inferior machines, lower numbers and difficult logistics, saying that the Allies had better pilots is ludicrous to say the least.

That is a pretty big pantload. Difficult Logistics? The US had to move all their aircraft and supplies across the Atlantic friggin Ocean. German aircraft could be pushed from the factory to the runway. That the Germans were flying inferior machines is also pretty silly.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

make less errors by spotting landmarks and confusing them with something else.

This is also absurd. It's true that pilots over the ocean don't have any landmarks to confuse them. They also don't have any landmarks to save them. Given the choice, I'll take my chances with "confusing" landmarks. IFR is a lot easier when there are roads to follow.