Friday 2010-11-12 Dev. update and Discussion

[Richie]

Originally Posted by Necrobaron

This isn't directed at you specifically Foo'bar and I'll probably regret even making this point since it'll probably make me a "bad guy" but...

That'd be too bad if markings are not editable. In the case of WWII-era German planes specifically, it bugs me when history takes a backseat to censorship and political correctness. As much as I disagree with it, I accept that some countries like to whitewash history by making some symbols illegal. That's their perogative and I understand that Maddox Games doesn't want to open themselves up for litigation (though I think it's ludicrous to think a flight sim would be a lightning rod for Neo-Nazis). However if SoW, or whatever it's called now, is going to ship with missing aircraft markings, I'd at least like to keep the avenue open for 3rd parties to add the correct markings for those that can legally view historical correctness.

I'm certainly no Nazi sympathizer but for all the nitpicking about inconsequential details, it's surprising to me that more people aren't bugged by the lack of historically correct markings on German planes. Like it or not, the swastika was there. To me, leaving it off is tantamount to leaving the fin flashes or roundels off RAF planes, tantamount of course not in idealogy but in historical correctness.

Ok, rant over. Sorry for veering off on a controversial tangent so...flame away!

So no more swastikas?

[322Sqn_Dusty]

Sure..ok no Swastikas in the game ..but no Finnish markings either? **Well..put it on the colorlayer then....right?**

[Crunchieone]

Love it,love it,love it.

[Necrobaron]

Originally Posted by Foo'bar

Well I think that you don't want or can't get the point Peace!

This is a serious topic and since english isn't my native language I prefer to say nothing more about it.

Fair enough, but if the point is that the swastika is "bad" then it isn't a very good point. I understand full-well what the 3rd Reich's twisting of the swastika represents but I choose to try and view history objectively. I also understand that undesirable elements in Europe and elsewhere still respect the idealogy represented by the Nazi swastika and that banning it is considered a thorn in their side, but I'm a fan of free speech.

Originally Posted by MuxaHuk

there is special build-in markings editor in MainMenu->Extras.
Just two clicks, have fun

Ah, interesting. Thanks for the information!

Originally Posted by Richie

So no more swastikas?

Someone else can probably provide more detail than me but apparently Russia has outlawed the depiction of the swastika and I can appreciate that it could be a legal issue for MG if they even make it an option. It's an absurd situation, but it is what it is. I just didn't want to see the skins locked down in a way as to prevent a 3rd party from adding markings for those that can legally view them.

Originally Posted by Splitter

I don't REALLY care if it is there or not, but since there is no good reason for it to be omitted then it's wrong to not have it in an otherwise historically accurate sim. The ability for a third party to add them should not be curtailed.

This pretty much sums it up!
________
Maine Marijuana Dispensary

[brando]

Originally Posted by Necrobaron

This isn't directed at you specifically Foo'bar and I'll probably regret even making this point since it'll probably make me a "bad guy" but...

That'd be too bad if markings are not editable. In the case of WWII-era German planes specifically, it bugs me when history takes a backseat to censorship and political correctness. As much as I disagree with it, I accept that some countries like to whitewash history by making some symbols illegal. That's their perogative and I understand that Maddox Games doesn't want to open themselves up for litigation (though I think it's ludicrous to think a flight sim would be a lightning rod for Neo-Nazis). However if SoW, or whatever it's called now, is going to ship with missing aircraft markings, I'd at least like to keep the avenue open for 3rd parties to add the correct markings for those that can legally view historical correctness.

I'm certainly no Nazi sympathizer but for all the nitpicking about inconsequential details, it's surprising to me that more people aren't bugged by the lack of historically correct markings on German planes. Like it or not, the swastika was there. To me, leaving it off is tantamount to leaving the fin flashes or roundels off RAF planes, tantamount of course not in idealogy but in historical correctness.

Ok, rant over. Sorry for veering off on a controversial tangent so...flame away!

I don't think that the Germans banned the swastika emblem for reasons of "...... censorship and political correctness." I believe they did it as a reaction to one of the worst things that can happen to a nation state; namely allowing itself to be taken over by a totalitarian dictatorship and ending up being humiliated by the atrocities that were carried out in its name.
I also don't believe it's a whitewash of history. It comes across as a total rejection of the Nazi dogma and a solid declaration of German unwillingness to allow the same mistakes to be made again. It was the right decision and I for one applaud it.

[FG28_Kodiak]

From Wikipedia:
Germany
Further information: Strafgesetzbuch § 86a

The German (and Austrian) postwar criminal code makes the public showing of the Hakenkreuz (the swastika) and other Nazi symbols illegal and punishable, except for scholarly reasons. It is even censored from the lithographs on boxes of model kits, and the decals that come in the box. Modellers seeking an accurate rendition often have to either stencil on the marking, or purchase separate decals. It is also censored from the reprints of 1930s railway timetables published by the Reichsbahn. The eagle remains, but appears to be holding a solid black circle between its talons. The swastikas on Hindu and Jain temples are exempt, as religious symbols cannot be banned in Germany.

A German fashion company was investigated for using traditional British-made folded leather buttons after complaints that they resembled swastikas. In response, Esprit destroyed two hundred thousand catalogues.[65][66]
...
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakenkr...tern_countries)
If Oleg will sell his Game in Germany and Austria (Germany is a great Market for Computer Games) there should be no Hakenkreuz visible in the game and no option to enable it.

[Jaguar]

The choice is not really ours. It belongs to Mr Maddox himself. If he choses not to then there is nothing that anyone would be able to do about it. Voice your opinion and move on to the next topic. I would not want Oleg to interfere with my potentiall earnings or make me lose my income.

[Friendly_flyer]

Originally Posted by Foo'bar

No markings on that, only colors. Markings, riveting/panels, weathering comes all from separate layers wich aren't editable (if I've got luthier's words right).

If you make your own skin, you generally want your own markings on them. I suppose the markings can be turned off like in IL2? Some of us skinners also like to ad things like dirt, over-painted damage etc. It won't look good on a very small file, no matter if the rivets and lines are in another layer.

[Necrobaron]

Originally Posted by 322Sqn_Dusty

Sure..ok no Swastikas in the game ..but no Finnish markings either? **Well..put it on the colorlayer then....right?**

I'd doubt it, though it has no connection with Nazism. Like the Nazi swastika, Von Rosen's cross could be assessed in the old IL-2 series, but it was not available by default. It's amazing that some people have allowed a symbol that, for hundreds if not thousands of years, stood for good luck and prosperity by various cultures around the world be soiled by the evil of a political party that lasted for a mere 25 years.
________
Homemade Vapouriser

[Jaguar]

Not so, the way for thousands of years had been changed. Nazis put the shape backward..

卍) form. Archaeological evidence of swastika-shaped ornaments dates from the Neolithic period and throughout the Iron Age and Classical Antiquity. It remains widely used in Eastern religions, specifically in Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism.