British FM killing the fun of the game for allied pilots.

[Crumpp]

There's nothing about long period dynamic longitudinal stability in there, hence my question.

Right, there are not a "big deal" because they can be controlled by the pilot.

Hence the reason why inertial weights are added to increase his feel and ability to control those oscillations.

Right now, in the GAME, there is nothing for a Spitfire Pilot to control. The instability does not exist in the GAME.

Longitudinally, the aircraft is stable with centre of gravity forward, but is unstable with centre of gravity normal and aft with engine 'OFF' and 'ON'.

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/k9787-fuel.html

In the game, they are longitudinally stable both static and dynamic:

You flying in RL, i don't have to say, in RL you have much more feedback from the plane, plus you have 1:1 sized, smooth force feedback stick You feel the plane movement, shaking, the forces on the seat, etc.

You still trim the plane in the game without all the feedback a real pilot gets and you don't need FF for trim!

[Crumpp]

Where does it say it was a danger, a major problem or even a minor problem?

This has been covered over and over. You know the answer and can read the POH.

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

This has been covered over and over. You know the answer and can read the POH.

I do know what they say and I do believe the fact that in a high speed stall the aircraft will bang and clatter is a really serious issue.
I mean what else would you expect to happen in a high speed stall? As a CFI you must have done dozens of high speed stalls and I am willing to bet that they clatter and shudder as well.

In a high speed dive it is possible to exceed the G limit, if you pull up too quickly. Well thats new, again as a CFI you must warn your pupils about the dangers of exceeding G limits, well I hope you do.

Great loss of hight when you lose control. Well thats novel. In the UK its normal to teach spins at 12,000 ft because of the danger of loss of height. I assume you do the same in the USA for the same reason. If not what height do you start spin training at?

The need to ensure that you have sufficient speed before recovering drom a dive. Well thats standard training and one that I hope you do as a CFI

Last but not least the fact that if you are so slow off the mark as not to take remedial action should the aircraft flick over, it may result in the aircraft being strained or break it. If you don't take remedial action when entering a high speed roll/spin what do you think will happen?

I think that covers all the points that you raised. Can I ask you to point out which are unique to a Spitfire. I can say that all these points and more are covered in Glider Pilot training in the UK.

Or if they are unique to a Spitfire, can you say which you don't teach in your position as a CFI?

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by Glider

Can I ask you to point out which are unique to a Spitfire.

It does seem that British, German and Americans trials and manuals and pilots all highlight a pronounced sensitivity and instability in pitch for the Spitfire, David.

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

It does seem that British, German and Americans trials and manuals and pilots all highlight a pronounced sensitivity and instability in pitch for the Spitfire, David.

Something I do not deny for a moment, and am more than happy to have in the sim.
In an earlier posting I did look at a number of points that had been raised and tried to find areas of agreement so the Developers would have something to work on and improve things while others were shall we say debated.

However the key point is to what degree was it a major problem. Clearly it was in the Mk V and the bob weights were installed. The fact that it was an approved mod to the Mk I in July 1941 after other approved mods including the change of engine to the Merlin 45 and addition of 20mm cannon point (to me anyway) that it became a problem after the additional weight of these and other changes.
The fact that the Spit was in service for approx 3 years before this change idicates that until this additional weight was added it wasn't a problem.

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Facepalm!!!!!

Originally Posted by Crumpp

and you don't need FF for trim!

Double facepalm!!!! practically the primary function of trim is to aleviate the pilot from holding constant stick force thereby remedying fatigue....how does this not involve feedback?

[VO101_Tom]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

You still trim the plane in the game without all the feedback a real pilot gets and you don't need FF for trim!

Basically you right, but I'm sure, you cannot trim the plane as fast and accurate like in RL. When i fly with bombers, it is difficult to set the level flight. I trim the plane, and look whether moving or not. If so, I trim again, and look again, and so on. Disturbing that I don't feel the movement of the plane, or the stick forces.

And the trimm is not required such a precise handing, like the stick when you flying on the edge.

[Crumpp]

Originally Posted by VO101_Tom

Basically you right, but I'm sure, you cannot trim the plane as fast and accurate like in RL. When i fly with bombers, it is difficult to set the level flight. I trim the plane, and look whether moving or not. If so, I trim again, and look again, and so on. Disturbing that I don't feel the movement of the plane, or the stick forces.

And the trimm is not required such a precise handing, like the stick when you flying on the edge.

You can trim the plane reasonable well in these games. It is not the same as actually triming an aircraft but is a very reasonable facsimile.

I am sure a reasonable facsimile of the Spitfire instability can be implemented allowing the aircraft FM's to have their historical performance numbers while maintaining status as equal dogfighters.

Can I ask you to point out which are unique to a Spitfire.

Glider,

Airplanes all have unique flying qualities and the Spitfire is no different.

One of the defining characteristics of the early mark Spitfire is the longitudinal instabilty.

Modeling an aircraft with the speed, climb, and turn performance of a Spitfire and stable would be overmodeled and not historically correct.

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Glider,

Airplanes all have unique flying qualities and the Spitfire is no different.

One of the defining characteristics of the early mark Spitfire is the longitudinal instabilty.

Modeling an aircraft with the speed, climb, and turn performance of a Spitfire and stable would be overmodeled and not historically correct.

On this I agree. So you agree that the points you highlight are not dangers specific to a SPitfire?

[robtek]

Originally Posted by Glider

On this I agree. So you agree that the points you highlight are not dangers specific to a SPitfire?

The danger to a spitfire in game should be that if a pilot abuses his controls (elevator) the plane should break up, the same abuse in a 109 shouldn't lead to breaking the plane, as the pilot there isn't able to produce the necessary stick forces.

The 109 pilot needs high speed and trim to break his plane with the elevators.

Just to keep it simple.