Suddenly Spit IIa on all the servers?

[Madfish]

I said it in my post or was trying to say: this only goes for dogfighting. Co-op and realism servers should stay the way they are, of course, they are imbalanced by design and people have to expect that. I'm saying should because it's also very naive. There could be cool applications. For example fighting in a captured plane. Yes, not the most realistic thing but still interesting for a co-op scenario.

But saying dogfighting servers are real or as close to realism as they can be is wrong in my opinion. I laid out enough arguments in my post above and no one has ever bothered with answering them.
What's so real about our dogfight servers? The conditions back in the days have been totally different. So we can't just quote this past and force it on the game now and say "this is real". It's not.

How you say arcade to such a server escapes me though. Just because I want the very same realistic planes being able to go up against each other? That changes nothing regarding the simulation fidelity I believe.

[Gollum]

Has anyone noticed that it's difficult to outclimb everything in a 109 post patch?

I usually fly the 109 and used to do pretty well with at least 1 kill per night (not a whole lot since im fine tuning my dive gunnery). Ide get more if I was able to sneak up on them but no matter what It was rare Ide get shot down since I know the golden rules. Maintain altitude, shallow dive away when in touble until energy levels equaled out and then outclimb. However post patch....

I was flying on the full real hyperlobbly server last night..

I took a 109 up and gained altitude (about 4000 M) and crossed the channel following a friendly 109. we turned west when reaching the coast. In the long radious turn I checked our six to find 2 planes approaching from 7:00 low. I figured they were friendly since they were coming from france as well. As they got closer to my dismay I began making out the outline of what I thought was a spitfire. They were close but not within firing range. I quickly engaged afterburner, set prop pitch to 2400 RPM and straigtened out begining a fleeing climb. I maintained this for 30 to 40 seconds and since I was yet to recieve fire jigged my rudder to check my six hoping to see the devilish spitfire a bit further away and under me as would be normal. Unfortunately the buzzard was closer and began firing. (thought to myself oh **** its a IIa). I quickly banked left towards france full throttle adjusting pitch to maintain rpm band in a shallow dive expecting to outrun the beast. Again, to my dismay he advanced... and began tearing my plane appart with his 303s. Frustraded at this point having on normal conditions would had bested his energy in the dive and now begun my climb I asked ( "let me guess.. IIas on this server?"). I recieved the reply : "LOL im in a hurricane"...

Now I'm not saying that i'm a ace 109 pilot because i'm far from it at this point but has anyone else noticed similar problems? I only ask because another 109 pilot was also online stating that they must have changed something.

It could have been pilot error on my part, you never know, so im not saying it has changed. Just asking if anyone else has had problems outclimbing / diving RAF aircraft since patch.

As far as the IIa debate goes.. I want realism. If the limeys had the planes in certain numbers servers should include limited amounts of them based on number of players online. 20 players online flying for RAF? give them 8 of them to choose from. 40 players? give them 16. This would keep the realism and make it fair for both sides assuming all flight models were accurate to RL. I wouldn't mind watching out for a few while fighting mostly Ia's. And this would prevent the RAF from complaining when the next more advanced Germ fighter comes out. ect....

oh oh oh. and also you could have a system where bombing factory targets reduce availible percenteges of "advanced fighters" . This would give the bomber pilots a reason to fly.

[Madfish]

Originally Posted by Gollum

oh oh oh. and also you could have a system where bombing factory targets reduce availible percenteges of "advanced fighters" . This would give the bomber pilots a reason to fly.

Loving this idea. But it's problematic.

For example I remember some discussion about 110 octane fuel for the brits. Ugh, still gives me the headache. What I'm trying to say is people will start fighting over how many "advanced" this or that each side has to have.

Also on the servers people would fight over the planes as there would probably be a first come first serve approach...

But I love the idea of having some value as a bomber pilot other than... none.

[Ze-Jamz]

Originally Posted by Madfish

Loving this idea. But it's problematic.

For example I remember some discussion about 110 octane fuel for the brits. Ugh, still gives me the headache. What I'm trying to say is people will start fighting over how many "advanced" this or that each side has to have.

Also on the servers people would fight over the planes as there would probably be a first come first serve approach...

But I love the idea of having some value as a bomber pilot other than... none.

Id love one day to play the attrition game in CloD...made ww2ol what it was, brings so many aspects to the game.

no one could moan about FM's then as its up to you to keep the newly developed AC at bay

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Madfish

Loving this idea. But it's problematic.

For example I remember some discussion about 110 octane fuel for the brits. Ugh, still gives me the headache. What I'm trying to say is people will start fighting over how many "advanced" this or that each side has to have.

Also on the servers people would fight over the planes as there would probably be a first come first serve approach...

But I love the idea of having some value as a bomber pilot other than... none.

Make it historically accurate. or at least close. nothings perfect but I think it would be better. if theres too much "advanced aircraft in the sky then your bombing campaign is failing..

[Ze-Jamz]

Originally Posted by Gollum

Has anyone noticed that it's difficult to outclimb everything in a 109 post patch?

I usually fly the 109 and used to do pretty well with at least 1 kill per night (not a whole lot since im fine tuning my dive gunnery). Ide get more if I was able to sneak up on them but no matter what It was rare Ide get shot down since I know the golden rules. Maintain altitude, shallow dive away when in touble until energy levels equaled out and then outclimb. However post patch....

I was flying on the full real hyperlobbly server last night..

I took a 109 up and gained altitude (about 4000 M) and crossed the channel following a friendly 109. we turned west when reaching the coast. In the long radious turn I checked our six to find 2 planes approaching from 7:00 low. I figured they were friendly since they were coming from france as well. As they got closer to my dismay I began making out the outline of what I thought was a spitfire. They were close but not within firing range. I quickly engaged afterburner, set prop pitch to 2400 RPM and straigtened out begining a fleeing climb. I maintained this for 30 to 40 seconds and since I was yet to recieve fire jigged my rudder to check my six hoping to see the devilish spitfire a bit further away and under me as would be normal. Unfortunately the buzzard was closer and began firing. (thought to myself oh **** its a IIa). I quickly banked left towards france full throttle adjusting pitch to maintain rpm band in a shallow dive expecting to outrun the beast. Again, to my dismay he advanced... and began tearing my plane appart with his 303s. Frustraded at this point having on normal conditions would had bested his energy in the dive and now begun my climb I asked ( "let me guess.. IIas on this server?"). I recieved the reply : "LOL im in a hurricane"...

Now I'm not saying that i'm a ace 109 pilot because i'm far from it at this point but has anyone else noticed similar problems? I only ask because another 109 pilot was also online stating that they must have changed something.

It could have been pilot error on my part, you never know, so im not saying it has changed. Just asking if anyone else has had problems outclimbing / diving RAF aircraft since patch.

As far as the IIa debate goes.. I want realism. If the limeys had the planes in certain numbers servers should include limited amounts of them based on number of players online. 20 players online flying for RAF? give them 8 of them to choose from. 40 players? give them 16. This would keep the realism and make it fair for both sides assuming all flight models were accurate to RL. I wouldn't mind watching out for a few while fighting mostly Ia's. And this would prevent the RAF from complaining when the next more advanced Germ fighter comes out. ect....

oh oh oh. and also you could have a system where bombing factory targets reduce availible percenteges of "advanced fighters" . This would give the bomber pilots a reason to fly.

Ok the SPit2 thing... I think it should just be working as it should along with the 109..atm its not, its working too good or the 109 isnt good enough..whatever

Ok

you say you wanted to climb but you set your RPM to 2400?..why? You wont outclimb anything setting your RPM to 2400...you can have your RPM at 2800 if you like but if your Prop isnt cutting into the air and pulling as it should your achieve nothing m8..

Do some experimenting and put your plane in a steady climb using trim...100% throttle and adjust your PP to around the 10-10.30 mark..see what happens..

Have your PP at 12o clock and RPM at 2400 if your stall fighting or have got yourself low and slow but not from moving at speed which i guess you were...?

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Ze-Jamz

Ok the SPit2 thing... I think it should just be working as it should along with the 109..atm its not, its working too good or the 109 isnt good enough..whatever

Ok

you say you wanted to climb but you set your RPM to 2400?..why? You wont outclimb anything setting your RPM to 2400...you can have your RPM at 2800 if you like but if your Prop isnt cutting into the air and pulling as it should your achieve nothing m8..

Do some experimenting and put your plane in a steady climb using trim...100% throttle and adjust your PP to around the 10-10.30 mark..see what happens..

Have your PP at 12o clock and RPM at 2400 if your stall fighting or have got yourself low and slow but not from moving at speed which i guess you were...?

It was in the flight manual under "climb". It stated the proper prop pitch for climbing in a 109 was 2400 RPM. I've not had a problem using this until now but I'll keep messing around with it. What RPM do you find the best for climbing? It's like going uphill on MTB. thought low gear would be optimal but I could be wrong.

[Ze-Jamz]

Originally Posted by Gollum

It was in the flight manual under "climb". It stated the proper prop pitch for climbing in a 109 was 2400 RPM. I've not had a problem using this until now but I'll keep messing around with it. What RPM do you find the best for climbing? It's like going uphill on MTB. thought low gear would be optimal but I could be wrong.

It all depends on speed mate, but the manual maybe right but not correct to what we have in game

When your cruising out to get Alt, adjust your PP and keep an eye on your speed, your be very surprised at certain heights...You automatically assume lower engine tone/revs slows you down when climbing..not always the case

~S~

[conio]

Originally Posted by Gollum

Has anyone noticed that it's difficult to outclimb everything in a 109 post patch?
...
...
I only ask because another 109 pilot was also online stating that they must have changed something.

I agree 100% with this. Something was changed (for bad) on the 109, all models.

[Blackdog_kt]

Originally Posted by xnomad

Well I finally got shot down by a human flown Spit tonight for the first time. First of all a big thumbs up to the pilot as I met him at 3000 metres! He had a bit of an advantage to start as I had to climb and turn to get on him to ID him first.

I managed to keep him in front of my nose for a few turns back and forth by doing some high yo yos. I got some MG shots on him first from a distance and saw him streaming coolant. So I thought I had this Spit 2 under control. He then went into a dive and I climbed a bit to wait for him to come up again below me.

So I'm expecting him to zoom back up and slow down below me as I've been spiral climbing. Nah he zoomed up and not only that, he did a hard turn whilst climbing and got some shots that knocked out part of my engine and my radiators! Now he was co alt with me and still hauling. You can actually gain altitude by diving and zooming up again but this was very unexpected.

I then did a helpless power dive to get away but my craft was a bit of a mess, I did some bunts and reverses and managed to get an overshoot but he turned on a dime and was right back on my tail. Engine shot to pieces, canopy off and out for a swim in the channel.

It's official I'm scared of the Spit MKII that thing is mean! In the right hands it's an almost impossible match for the 109. Salute to the pilot too, it wasn't just the plane.

Sounds just like flying 190s back in IL2, down low it's full of better turning and better climbing planes, if you go a bit higher to BnZ them there are other faster planes higher up that BnZ you.

/me runs


On a serious note, i think the issue is not balance or historical accuracy on their own, because absolute balance is unrealistic and absolute accuracy is impossible. I think the issue is balance within the constraints of historical accuracy, but in the wider scheme of things, ie how the battles tend to play out:

A planeset with more or less equally undermodeled flyables results in a somewhat accurate portrayal of the way the engagements historically played out, because the "gaps" between the capabilities of each aircraft remain roughly the same. That's why 109s vs Hurris and Spit Is worked until now, they are all undermodeled to a certain extent.

A planeset with these same, equally undermodeled flyables and a single, properly modeled flyable does not play out like that, because there is now a huge gap between it and the other aircraft types.


The FM might be off, but if an ingame Hurri does 250mph and the 109 does 270, while a real Hurri did 300mph and the 109 did 320 (numbers are not accurate, i'm just illustrating a point here), it's still a 20mph performance gap in both cases and the way the fight plays out will be close to what historically tended to happen.

In other words, to have accurately evolving fights you don't necessarily need 100% accurate FMs, what you need is accuracy in performance differences between types. It's precisely this aspect which the Spit II messes up, because currently it's the only non-undermodeled fighter in the sim (or the least undermodeled): no single fighter during the BoB had a 100km/h airspeed advantage over its contemporaries.