Simulation or Shoot-em-up?

[Flanker35M]

S!

Jagr, I know about the Allied bombing things etc. The Hurricane and Spitfire were armed with rifle caliber as well. At that time it was believed that they would be enough and you have to remember that He111 or Ju88 were developed against fighters of that time their plans were introduced..in 1930's with Gladiators etc. The rapid development of more modern planes caused them to be obsolete in speed/defense department when Spitfire/Hurricane came out.

But you could not park behind one for ages and not expect to stay without being hit. In CoD you can, kind of gone from IL-2's extreme of sniper gunners to CoD's blind idiots behind the guns. In EAW you could engage bomber formations with proper tactics and survive, but if parked behind you were dead or damaged. In B17 II also applied, used head-on attacks to kill B17's with minimal damage on me.

CoD has the potential and is being patched, hopefully a lot before US release, so the future looks not so bad. But until then I am off to other games like World Of Tanks etc. as they simply just run fine and are fun. CoD will be when ready.

[ATAG_Bliss]

nats,

The only thing I can guess is that you are new to the IL2 series. The great campaigns of old IL2 were produced by the community. The great campaigns of IL2COD will be produced by the community.

As far as immersing you into BOB, the FMB is there to recreate any situation you want. Unlike ROF, you are not stranded with small object and aircraft limitations in a mission. This is one of the few, if only, game engines in a flight sim that is only grounded by the hardware you run. For all criticism you give to IL2COD, especially talking about the immersion of feeling like you are part of the war, it's amazing that you praise ROF as much as you do, because the last thing you can do in ROF is simulate being part of WWI. Just take a quick stroll to the trenches (NML) and you'll find them empty. If the only thing you did in a ROF mission was fill the trenches up with the same number of AAA that was historically there, and didn't add one other object to the mission besides the plane you are flying, the mission wouldn't even load. This is regardless of your hardware.

That is much more of a concern to me (the game engine) than it's current un-optimized state, bugs, or FM that will get fixed in IL2COD. We've been waiting for 2 years (ever since the purchase of planes in ROF) for an FM fix for many of the planes. Instead of fixing the planes we have paid for they keep creating add on's and new planes to sell. I'm sorry, but that is complete crap IMO. These guys will actually have the game fixed, long before they try to sell you something.

The dead horse has been beatin to death. It's quite clear this sim was released or forced out the door early. But it's also quite clear that it is being supported and will get better. As I've stated before, as far as immersion and sim engines go the possibilities for IL2COD, will be endless.

It's also quite clear you never played ROF at launch. 4 planes, a master browser that crashed every 5 minutes, coop only mode that you were lucky to get 5 minutes of flying in before you crashed or got disconnected back to desktop, all of this while waiting 20 minutes in the 1st place just to be able to fly.

I do like ROF as a combat sim, but as a WWI sim, it's far from it.

Originally Posted by SYN_Bliss

nats,

The only thing I can guess is that you are new to the IL2 series. The great campaigns of old IL2 were produced by the community. The great campaigns of IL2COD will be produced by the community.

As far as immersing you into BOB, the FMB is there to recreate any situation you want. Unlike ROF, you are not stranded with small object and aircraft limitations in a mission. This is one of the few, if only, game engines in a flight sim that is only grounded by the hardware you run. For all criticism you give to IL2COD, especially talking about the immersion of feeling like you are part of the war, it's amazing that you praise ROF as much as you do, because the last thing you can do in ROF is simulate being part of WWI. Just take a quick stroll to the trenches (NML) and you'll find them empty. If the only thing you did in a ROF mission was fill the trenches up with the same number of AAA that was historically there, and didn't add one other object to the mission besides the plane you are flying, the mission wouldn't even load. This is regardless of your hardware.

That is much more of a concern to me (the game engine) than it's current un-optimized state, bugs, or FM that will get fixed in IL2COD. We've been waiting for 2 years (ever since the purchase of planes in ROF) for an FM fix for many of the planes. Instead of fixing the planes we have paid for they keep creating add on's and new planes to sell. I'm sorry, but that is complete crap IMO. These guys will actually have the game fixed, long before they try to sell you something.

The dead horse has been beatin to death. It's quite clear this sim was released or forced out the door early. But it's also quite clear that it is being supported and will get better. As I've stated before, as far as immersion and sim engines go the possibilities for IL2COD, will be endless.

It's also quite clear you never played ROF at launch. 4 planes, a master browser that crashed every 5 minutes, coop only mode that you were lucky to get 5 minutes of flying in before you crashed or got disconnected back to desktop, all of this while waiting 20 minutes in the 1st place just to be able to fly.

I do like ROF as a combat sim, but as a WWI sim, it's far from it.

Well said on RoF.

Not sure CoD is fixable, no matter how much time/energy/devotion the devs commit, but we'll see.

[Orpheus]

Originally Posted by nats

That wasnt a troll post it was a genuine post with problems in the game expressed quite clearly. I feel the same. You obviously just want a simulator that represents a few BOB planes. I want a game that immerses me in the BOB not a dull simulator that represents planes to the nth degree and allows you to play a few dogfights. There have been loads of games like that down before and they were all boring to me (IL2 included). I thought this game was going to immerse me in the BOB and have a great campaign mode. It doesnt.

There are obviously two types of people on this forum - those who want a simulator and those who want a great game. We are not at opposed ends of the spectrum. It would be a better place if there was a bit of understanding here about peoples problems. If you dont want to read it then dont - no one is forcing you.

Quoting this dude for epic truth. Glossing over people's legitimate problems doesn't help anyone, and the current state of the game is pretty appalling, all told. A lot of us are disappointed in many of the same things as nats; I find the too-bright landscape, the pop-in, the myriad little immersion breakers and the poor campaigns a big let down, and we all know how the performance has been.

Doesn't mean we don't want things to improve - just that we expected better, and people of that opinion deserve to be heard just as much as the series-fanboys. Doesn't matter whether we're hardcore sim-heads or just want dogfights, we're all here for the same reasons: to have fun flying planes.

[ChocsAway]

Originally Posted by Flanker35M

S!

Jagr, the AI seems to have just the same AI routines as IL-2 had. The AI wobbles it's ailerons, rudder moving like a paddle, flap fighting, they suddenly just ignore you and fly straight, barrel roll evasions, outclimb tactics etc.

The bombers dogfight and collide like idiots. The power of their defence was a formation and they flew relatively steady. I can go fly in the middle of them without fear of getting even half seriously damaged. I flew under a bomber Do17Z at about 5m below the gunner and he MISSED! Shot his bullets to the sky as he tracked another plane, not mine.

The list of AI goes on. I just call it Appalling Idiocy as it is now. I like CoD, but as for now it is a test bed for patches. Not gonna go online before issues have been tackled. Remaining hopeful, but I think the US release will be the point where we can see what is gonna happen. A few weeks to go and really hope Luthier's gang will get it patched up before that.

Totally agree with you here. The AI is nothing short of a joke and the biggest immersion killer IMO. ME109s rolling faster than an F16. Friendly AI queing up and stealing kills. Enemy planes not bothering to evade when you pump bursts of fire into them repeatedly plus all of the above.

My biggest concern is that as others have mentioned, and that is that Clod will be abandoned by the devs once the USA version has been released. It needs a lot of work and some pretty huge patches to make the sim playable and more immersive. I hope we get that as there's lots to like about Clod already and I've spent many hours on it even in the broken state it is clearly in, but with so much potential it would be a real shame to see it fail.

[DogTailRed2]

Originally Posted by 1.JaVA_Platypus

I suggest you lower your visual settings and/or upgrade graphics card, RAM and processor. COD is very very playable. But it needs a lot of tuning from the user. It is not a standard FPS that you can just jump in and shoot around.

Many thanks to everyone for making this an interesting and lively thread.
My system is a reasonably decent set-up.

Quad core 2.33. 4 gb RAM. GTS 250 1gb RAM. 500gb RAID 0 striped discs for speed. Win 7 64bit.

While I appreciate that is not state of the art it should be able to cope with the basics the sim has to offer. My sliders are set at medium settings. If I go much lower then I just end up with IL2 in quality.

It's not just the FPS that is an issue for me. It's the feel of the sim. It just doesn't feel like i'm being immersed into a 1940 Battle of Britain environment. There are some really nice touches to the sim. The stream of oil from a bombers damaged engine. Impact hit flashes from cannon shells. The spiral trail of rounds. Actually hitting a 109 and seeing coolant from his rads.
What's missing is that scramble from a recognisable RAF BOB period airfield. Listening to the controller vectoring towards the bandits (which should be something like "Tophat Leader this is Pinetree control. I have some trade for you over Maidstone. 20+ bandits at Angels 15"). Not "Red 1 attacking bombers, attacking bombers, attacking bombers. I'm out of ammo!" (try 2 second bursts old AI chap).
There's not even any stirring music as you engage the enemy and those splash screens are decidedly eastern front in look and feel. What's with all the Panzers anyway. We weren't invaded and as for the Beaufighter, why?

When I fly FSX with the A2A Spitfire. 3 pumps on the primer. Firing the coffman starter and waiting for temps to rise, or checking the trolly acc is attached. Listening to the Merlin engine purring away. Pushing the throttle forward and hearing a Merlin growl. Opening the canopy, hearing the whistle as I crack it open, then the wind rushing around the canopy when I push it back. Looking down on an accurate depiction of England. Not needing maps as I can see landmarks and other features. Flying the circuit at Duxford. Hearing the steam vent popping because I overheated her again. Buzzing the tower at Alderney and hearing the gulls flying past. I feel immersion and I don't even have anything to shoot at.

When I fly COD over a stuttery unrecognisable sudo English landscape to do battle with a gaggle of, very nicely rendered, 6+ Stukas, in my Yak50 (well, that's what it sounds like and not very good at that). Opening the throttle wide and then wondering if i'm actually accelerating at all. Then having to wait for umpteen patches to get me to a level that probably still doesn't match the other sims out there. It grates when I've been told this will be the sim to end all sims. The new bench mark we have all been waiting for. 8 years. That's a lot of waiting.

Something else I would like to challenge is the concept that what will really make this sim a big hit are all the modders out there waiting to provide me with campaigns, fixes, patches and all the other stuff to fix the sim. I was expecting some of that to be included off the shelf. Anyway shouldn't the modders happen after a sim is released and has been played out. After all this sim isn't free-ware. If the community was needed to make this sim a hit then why didn't the programmers realise this, drop design of some of the content and focus on the environment. Give us a superb and brilliant framework to work with.

IL2 was a hit when I installed the demo. It was a hit when I bought the original, and the updates. Was an even bigger hit after all the fans produced updates to it. I just feel cod is design flawed. Has two many hang-ups from the original (menu system, simple formations, eastern block sounds) and two many missing elements from the original (lead in movies, music, playability).

To go back to my original premiss. That's why I see this as being just a game. A great game potentially with the ability for mass fur-balls on-line. A great game of mods and add-ons. But it's not going to be an accurate depiction of the Battle of Britain. No watching the fuel gauges for the 109's. No feeling of being outnumbered for the Spitfires. No scrambles or climb to battle and being bounced for the Hurri's. No late evening patrols in murky weather and trying to find base.

No Polish `flying circus` shouting "Repeat please" over the RT.

Regards,

Dog.

[TacKY]

Originally Posted by SYN_Bliss

I do like ROF as a combat sim, but as a WWI sim, it's far from it.

That's what it is suppose to be.... It never said that it was a WWI sim. At the moment, ROF is better. We aren't talking about two years ago but now. IL 2 is simply a buggy, horrible game and unless something changes soon then it is going to stay that way. And dont even start on that "Hurr Durr our computers can't handle its complexity Deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerp" It's the Devs job to to make it work correctly not ours.

[ATAG_Bliss]

Oh, I guess I got it all wrong then. According to your wonderful knowledge, I guess they released the bombers to dogfight? Just gonna go out on a limb here and say, that the reason they have a bomb load, is to bomb ground targets (maybe even simulate bombing some of the stuff that was in WWI they historically bombed). Who'd a thought they were released to fight with each other.

Thanks for clearing that up. The "deerping and Hurr Durr" really helped your cause as well.

[TacKY]

Originally Posted by SYN_Bliss

Oh, I guess I got it all wrong then. According to your wonderful knowledge, I guess they released the bombers to dogfight? Just gonna go out on a limb here and say, that the reason they have a bomb load, is to bomb ground targets (maybe even simulate bombing some of the stuff that was in WWI they historically bombed). Who'd a thought they were released to fight with each other.

Thanks for clearing that up. The "deerping and Hurr Durr" really helped your cause as well.

Because they dont have boats, trains, vehicles, stationary targets, hangers.... oh wait. You're trying to take a cheap shot at ROF because of COD shortcomings. THe game isnt even close to simulating WWII. I might as well stop right here since its only to going to turn into a monotonous COD vs ROF thread. As is, ROF is better then COD. Have fun with COD if you think otherwise but until the devs get some useful AI and a dynamic campaign, it wont change my view.

[ATAG_Bliss]

I'm not trying to take a cheap shot at anything. But for people like you or nats that are going to come here and try to compare a sim that was released and patched numerous times in over 2 years time to a sim that hasn't even been fully released yet, is laughable at best.

IL2COD short comings, the faults/bugs in it's current state will get fixed. ROF has a bunch of catching up to do to even come close to reaching the game engine or the potential of IL2COD. And you can basically recreate the BOB on the ground or in the air with the FMB. So you are wrong and obviously unknowledgable.