Dogfighting -does 4.11-4.12 patch address this?

[Janosch]

I really like this! It's like scientific research! Good! Because back then, during the 40s, they didn't even have AI to test, even if they had the scientific theory. We now have it all, and the conclusions and practical applications of these little tests are limitless. A pity that .ntrk isn't a "valid file" on this forum, but who cares - as I understand, customized paintschemes are not saved inside the .ntrk file.

Normandy, 1500 hours: The die is cast! 8 RAF Spitfairy LF MkIXc 25lbs race towards 8 Luftwaffe Bf 109 K4s and vice versa. Altitude is set at 5000m, clouds at 2750m. Note that the Spits have 40% fuel, 109s have 60% fuel, but that the Spits have bigger tanks innit! Game version is stock 4.12.1m. I have a customized paintscheme and partially changed sounds for most but not all effects, engines and weapons.
The AI of every plane is set to Ace. Difficulty is full real except for player map icon, which is on. And standard loadouts for all!

I find that the spits are already higher than me before the fight starts. Cheaters. After shooting one suspiciously honest spit down, I dive for safety, because I did see an ugly lump of pixels above and behind me. Forget the science, hello deck. Two unknown planes seem to follow me for a while. I really don't want to find out what they are! They give up their chase eventually. My wheels touch the ground eventually. The mission lasted for about 9 minutes and a half.

Unbiased observations and conclusions after a quick reviewing of the track:
- Bf 109 K4 numbers 1(non-AI), 5, 7 and 8 survived, with #3 losing his engine and making a crash landing. The rest didn't make it.
- All spits are gone. Since the interrogation of the dead/mia Spitfairy AI pilots is impossible, cheating investigations are at a standstill.
- K4s didn't cheat in any way, and thus receive decorations for good sportsmanship. Their impressive accuracy with the Mk108 was because of training.
- K4 pilot #5, AI, is a flight leader, and had apparently the highest kill count.
- Identifying planes in the middle of a combat is harder for humans than the AI, unless something obvious like tracer colour reveals the enemy.
:3 <3 (^^

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by Derda508

Nice vids and well flown, Ice

But I don´t think it will convince sombody who refuses to be convinced and does not even read what people are writing to him (which nicely supports the point I made about "believers"). In a previous post I openly admitted that I am a bad pilot. I get shot down all the time, I just don´t put the blame on the game or some sinister TD mastermind. I know it is because I am to lazy to do some proper training.
Most probably now you will be accused to cheat evn more than AI does ...

Thanks

No, it probably won't but I decided after my first post that... hey... lets just do this thing and record it. Me doing a 8 v 8 with various fighters is just a normal thing I like to do to keep my flying semi-sharp. I rarely have time to get in any serious time these days but last night I was wired from working late (totally had a second wind) so I did it anyways.

Plus I had fun.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by X-Raptor

ok m8, you then are an ACE player..congrats..probably you have the lucy to stay many hours of day with your joystick in the hands and you can manage to win even with all those cheats made by uber A.I. created by TD.
But this not solve the matter that people like you are rare, and general average player folks (like me..) continue to be frustrate to see this UBER- CHEAT A.I. (and more and more after every DT paches..). regards.

You know at this point I feel like saying "awwwwww" but I won't.

I'm not an Ace player. I can point you towards some ace players but they are not me. I'm not bad and I have experience which does count but I would only consider myself well rounded and with some degree of experience. I work full time (sometimes more than full time), own a house, and keep a very busy social schedule. Time for IL-2 is pretty limited these days

If you are getting shot down by veteran piloted aircraft in ever battle then its because of one thing: You. That's not to say that you can't improve and do better. Because you can and you will if you practice a bit. Sure it takes time and its a great hobby when you get downtime.

As far as the AI is concerned... the AI veterancy levels are great for both players and for mission builders. When I build campaigns my philosophy is this: Rookie and Normal are your typical pilots with minimal or average amounts of combat experience and typical of your average player. Veteran is what it says... an experienced combat veteran. Ace AI is a gifted pilot... the equivalent of Galland, Kozhedub, Gabreski, Beurling, etc.

The AI is not perfect and to some degree it does cheat because its AI and not a human player. But not in the way that you've stated and more importantly its not impossible to play against.

If you are an average pilot then you should set your QMB up with rookie and normal AI pilots. A veteran pilot should be a challenge if you're still getting started and learning the ropes. And its good that there are challenges because its good to raise the bar and be challenged. Only then can you improve.

If you find the AI pilots to be an issue then I encourage you to spend some time online. You'll see performances that exceed anything that the AI can do.

Also... since you said we should ante up and show you some tracks of how we were doing it. Lets see yours. We'll either see the AI cheating or we might be able to help you improve your technique... if that's what you're interested in.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by Janosch

I really like this! It's like scientific research! Good! Because back then, during the 40s, they didn't even have AI to test, even if they had the scientific theory. We now have it all, and the conclusions and practical applications of these little tests are limitless. A pity that .ntrk isn't a "valid file" on this forum, but who cares - as I understand, customized paintschemes are not saved inside the .ntrk file.

Normandy, 1500 hours: The die is cast! 8 RAF Spitfairy LF MkIXc 25lbs race towards 8 Luftwaffe Bf 109 K4s and vice versa. Altitude is set at 5000m, clouds at 2750m. Note that the Spits have 40% fuel, 109s have 60% fuel, but that the Spits have bigger tanks innit! Game version is stock 4.12.1m. I have a customized paintscheme and partially changed sounds for most but not all effects, engines and weapons.
The AI of every plane is set to Ace. Difficulty is full real except for player map icon, which is on. And standard loadouts for all!

I find that the spits are already higher than me before the fight starts. Cheaters. After shooting one suspiciously honest spit down, I dive for safety, because I did see an ugly lump of pixels above and behind me. Forget the science, hello deck. Two unknown planes seem to follow me for a while. I really don't want to find out what they are! They give up their chase eventually. My wheels touch the ground eventually. The mission lasted for about 9 minutes and a half.

Unbiased observations and conclusions after a quick reviewing of the track:
- Bf 109 K4 numbers 1(non-AI), 5, 7 and 8 survived, with #3 losing his engine and making a crash landing. The rest didn't make it.
- All spits are gone. Since the interrogation of the dead/mia Spitfairy AI pilots is impossible, cheating investigations are at a standstill.
- K4s didn't cheat in any way, and thus receive decorations for good sportsmanship. Their impressive accuracy with the Mk108 was because of training.
- K4 pilot #5, AI, is a flight leader, and had apparently the highest kill count.
- Identifying planes in the middle of a combat is harder for humans than the AI, unless something obvious like tracer colour reveals the enemy.
:3 <3 (^^

I love the combat report!

IDing planes is a way that the AI definitely cheats. They have to know or not know and its difficult to program them with a degree of uncertainty that a human player would have... also I imagine it would be very expensive on the CPU side of things to have that many routines running all the time.

[X-Raptor]

There is always someone who can be happy with this uber-cheat A.I. , especially fanatic players that not only play il2 1946 but also come here and aren't capable to do criticism. And they are the most part writing here obviously just to lick TD feets just to obtain others further present-paches: they remember me like an adult giving free sweet candits to children,.. and all of them don't mind if this sweet candies are outdated for istance.

I respect the opinon of everyone here about good or bad A.I. in the whole contest introduced by TD, but I can't approve people who won't admit that there are bad features about A.I. -and that are clear like water- just to not hurt daddy that is giving him "free sweets" .

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by X-Raptor

There is always someone who can be happy with this uber-cheat A.I. , especially fanatic players that not only play il2 1946 but also come here and aren't capable to do criticism. And they are the most part writing here obviously just to lick TD feets just to obtain others further present-paches: they remember me like an adult giving free sweet candits to children,.. and all of them don't mind if this sweet candies are outdated for istance.

I respect the opinon of everyone here about good or bad A.I. in the whole contest introduced by TD, but I can't approve people who won't admit that there are bad features about A.I. -and that are clear like water- just to not hurt daddy that is giving him "free sweets" .

Oh there are problems with the AI but so far your problem with them is that they are too difficult. Which isn't the same argument.

Furthermore you've argued that TD has introduced more cheating with the AI and that is also false. They have added more realism to the AI and there is less cheating going on. Just a few examples include:

1) Now they deflection shoot.
2) Now they can't see through the bottom of their aircraft.
3) Now they are affected by the overheating of their engines and must open their radiators to cool it down.
4) AI turret gunners are less accurate, less prone to first shot hits, and are more affected by G forces.

All introduced by TD. There's probably more that the AI is doing better now than ever before. Very contrary to some of your statements. Furthermore, if the argument is (and you have made it) that you can't shoot down Veteran or Ace AI or that they are too difficult... then that is not a problem with the AI (not specifically). It'd be wise to separate the two issues.

Everything else about candy, children, and foot fetishes is beside the point.

[Fenrir]

Originally Posted by X-Raptor

There is always someone who can be happy with this uber-cheat A.I. , especially fanatic players that not only play il2 1946 but also come here and aren't capable to do criticism.

Oh I can do criticism, chum. Just where it's warranted.

Originally Posted by X-Raptor

And they are the most part writing here obviously just to lick TD feets just to obtain others further present-paches:

Yeah, that's right. I congratulate those who put a massive amount of effort and their free-time into adding new content - FOR FREE, YOU PAY NOTHING -to an old game that would otherwise have died years ago. And yes, funnily enough I believe in carrot based motivation and the expression of appreciation. it's called being a) a grown up and b) polite.

Originally Posted by X-Raptor

they remember me like an adult giving free sweet candits to children,.. and all of them don't mind if this sweet candies are outdated for istance.

What a steaming pile of horse manure. TDs additions have not only breathed new facets into the game with additional aeroplanes and functionality to improve realism but actively improved user interface with the game from widescreen and TrackIR support. This game has never been so fresh. Sure she's showing her age against contemporaries graphically in some regards but the AI beats any recently released sim, hands down.

In fact the only stale thing round here is your frankly odorous (and onerous) attitude. It stinks.

Originally Posted by X-Raptor

I respect the opinion of everyone here

Ha! Could have fooled me. I suggest you reappraise your comprehension of the word respect. Your attitude shows nothing but contempt for most of the people here, particularly those who dare to slog over and release such 'stale' content.

What really astounds me is that somehow you think this tack, this line of belligerent abusiveness is actually going to accomplish anything? How would you feel if someone came along bad-mouthing something you'd spent months working on for no pay and that you had proffered to them for no financial reward? I suspect you'd tell them were to shove it. Why on earth do you expect any different in return?

Originally Posted by X-Raptor

...about good or bad A.I. in the whole contest introduced by TD, but I can't approve people who won't admit that there are bad features about A.I. -and that are clear like water- just to not hurt daddy that is giving him "free sweets" .

Are there areas that could do with improvement with the AI? Sure. A few little niggles: I don't think fighter bombers dive bombing routine is particularly accurate for Allied tactics. Sometimes the G affect on AI seems less pronounced than perhaps it should. I still occasionally see transports or bombers doing barrel rolls in formation. These could all do with work.

Difference is I know that there are certain difficulties, some of them insurmountable in the process of fixing them:

Problem 1 - THERE ARE CONSTRAINTS; the engine is limited to what it can physically process in terms of AI computations, it also 13 years old now and there are limits to what you can ask of it

Problem 2 - AI is only ever a poor analogy to true intelligence even at the highest orders of computing; what the hell do you expect from a 13 year old game engine? Getting it to make mistakes is probably harder to do than to get it to shoot straight!

Problem 3 - to my knowledge there is only one TD member dedicated to working with the AI; he has a family and a day job to contend with. So given that he does any and all work in his free-time you cannot expect immediate resolutions to even obvious faults.

When you combine all 3, you might start to grasp why it that the majority of us here appreciate the hard work he does and are understanding and patient when (or if) issues do arise.

The simple fact is that you suck. You don't like that you suck and you don't have the courage to acknowledge it. Until you do, you won't appraise your flying skills with any sense of objectivity and won't recognise your mistakes; and recognising where you suck is the first step of correcting that behaviour and working out how to improve.

Either that or you bin this game game and go fly War Thunder. I for one won't miss you, and given your attitude to most of the other members, I doubt anyone else will be crying at your departure either.

[Notorious M.i.G.]

I'm just glad that the days of the AI constantly climbing in an upward spiral to effortlessly get away are gone

X-Raptor, I don't think anyone's arguing that the AI is flawless like you seem to be implying, but it's certainly getting better, not worse. I decided to reinstall the original a few weeks ago for laughs and it's definitely a different story.

[Laurwin]

Hehe, atleast I can still kill zekes in my corsair campaign quite normally.

I should say, AI is better nowadays at flying and tactic and technique.

I did have some very ddicey moments vs ki84 and n1k2 in campaign though.
Also sometimes it was very hard, if zeros were co-alt and outnumbered us, sometimes even really badly. It was one of those marine corps corsaier campaigns.

I should try wildcat campaign or p40 campaign if i could download a good one.

Also p38 campaign in 1943 ETO or PTO would be great. But with p38-J

[Bearcat]

Originally Posted by Laurwin

I suppose the rookie level AI is a little bit too good in this game.
I mean, we are talking about the lowest level skill pilot we can have in game. One could argue they're quite a bit better than the new pilots Germany had in 1945 for example (re-assigned bomber pilot into fighters, practically no advanced fighter training etc....)

rookies were the guys who confused their flight leaders for enemies (like erich hartmann once did ) and tried to dogfight them. Or then they would just get lost in the skies. I mean these people were given limited training before sent to the front (for example, even American flight training was quite limited in scope, before pilots were sent from flight school to the front). And compared with most countries fighter training, it (American) was the most comprehensive one. There wasn't top gun school back then, only the basic courses, and a few flights on gunnery training.

rookie should be nerfed further, to replicate that they would be lowest skill pilots. (greenhorns, newbies)

-aircraft identification (esp headons). So they don't always know to blast away, would such a thing happen in real war? Before you can know if he's friend or foe? Merge happens for example, because of IDing bogey. In WW2 it meant silhouette ID or the insignia, if you wanted to be certain of friend-or-foe.

probably not unless you could visually ID the rest of the silhouette of the plane from a slight angle, before committing to headon attack. (special exception would be radial vs inline and such things... i.e. p3
-AI tracking skill (situational awareness) Rookie should be significantly worse than veteran, and ace.

I agree ..

Originally Posted by K_Freddie

P3:
While there are problems with the human interpretation of the AI (trust me DCS is a lot worse wrt AI).. TDs IL2 AI (v412) is.. repeat, IS the best I've seen for a long time. AI long term tactics, I'm sure are still a problem.. but QMB seems to suffice in this regard.

What a lot of people seems to forget, is that the 'relative performances' of the IL2 aircraft seem to reasonably accurate - and there are a lot of aircraft. An aircraft's specific RL performance might not be up-to-scratch.. but for online WW2 'jousting', it is the best so far - even for a 13 year old engine.
What it always comes down to.. is knowing your a/c, whether it's IL2/DCS or RL, and the limits you can push it too.

True ...

Originally Posted by gaunt1

AI in 4.12 is absolutely the best ever in the history of the sim.
However, these points are sadly true, and need fixing:

Further problems are:
-AI opens fire at ridiculous distances, (up to 6-700m) with great accuracy
-Sometimes, exclusively under the player's command, it is really stupid. For example, they spot the enemy, you order them to attack, and they just fly huge circles aimlessly.

I agree but some of the other issues can be addressed.. I make all the friendly AI Ave or veteran as I said .. Anything less and they may not behave.. Also often you have to command them frequently .. Attack Fighters.. Target All .. Cover me... etc. Like someone else said it also helps to kind of roll into a head on ..

Originally Posted by IceFire

The AI has been given a huge makeover and is so much better than it used to be. It can deflection shoot, it takes shots and guesses in a more realistic way, it can't see through itself like it used to... this is considered more cheating?

If the friendlies are set right they also respond very well to calls for help. have also found.. and this may be just a coincidence but it seems to me that when you respond to the A like they are live as well it helps.. I also noticed that they do not steal your kills as readily either.. They will back off if you keep shooting.. or even if you shoulder shoot them..

Originally Posted by sniperton

Similar experiences here:
1. Very little cooperation: wingman with "follow me" doesn't call me when attacked, doesn't warn me when I'm attacked, and doesn't attack when enemy is at my six and in front of his guns;
2. AI does use the vertical quite well, but not zooming out properly to perform a real BnZ tactic;
3. Veteran AI opens fire from 600-500 m, making occassional hits, but wasting ammo;
4. Rookie AI gunners are sometimes able to kill me with one single lmg shot from far.

I have found that one of the best things for using the AI is some sort of Voice Activated Command system like VAC..
Yeah some of that is still true.. but this AI is actually the best ever... The only thing missing from the QMB now is the ability to program individual pilot AI skill levels like you can the individual skins..