Dogfighting -does 4.11-4.12 patch address this?

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by Laurwin

Interesting observation. What would these aerodynamic boosts to AI be?
I know theres probably no g-lock for AI first of all. Second of all, is the AI performed barrell-roll defense, during which not only is the defender rolling insanely fast, but he is also outrunning a faster attacker! This looks quite baffling when its done by the AI. I mean, it is done with a shallow diving barrel-roll, but equally importantly constant rolling
ought to slow their speed down quite a bit, right?

In 4.11 and 4.12 the AI have more varied defensive techniques and don't do the endless barrel roll defense which is simultaneously annoying and somewhat predictable.

Usually the roll is combined with a shallow dive allowing the defensive move to go on for quite a long time. It works online against human opponents too

[MaxGunz]

The AI didn't become predictable. Players just got good enough to begin predicting the AI. If the AI ever "think ahead" beyond the one move they are doing it will be a major step worthy of a whole new game.

[KG26_Alpha]

Originally Posted by Pugo3

While I'm on the subjsect of aircraft performance...

I've read mostly positive reviews of the 4.11 - 4.12 patches regarding the improvements to AI characteristics. All good, I look forward to installing these patches, thanks to the good people and their work on our behalf. However, have the following issues been addressed?

1) Previously, if the AI aircraft's performance in Quick mission is greater that yours, it climbs away to begin a series of endless 'jousting' head on passes/bounces. No dogfighting ever, just jousting - endless jousting. Has anyone else ever been able to close in dogfight a P-51 with a Me 109, Fw 190?

It actually did happen, no, really it did. Honest to God, it really did happen occasionally.

I can only do so using another simm. Never mind this is not historical in the main, that the vast majority of encounter were close in dogfighting. The opportunity to see how one aircraft would compare in a dogfight with another is N/A - my chief complaint with Il-2 over the years. I know many love jousting and bouncing, but would it hurt to at least somehow be able just once to acutally dogfight another aircraft? Just once?

2) If one chooses to dogfifght with multiple AI aircraft, for some unknown reason the AI aircraft become rocket powered, absolutely boosted performance. I actually most time enjoy this as it ads challenge, but at the same time I'm aware that this is an inaccuracy, and I would like to see how I would fare against multiple aircraft with realistic flight characteristics maintained even with increased number of advesaries.

Love Il-2, many thanks to all who created it and are working to improve the product. Just please accept as recommendations to improve the brand.

Probably/possibly

The AI became predictable over the years and as far as I can ascertain from posts made by various TD members most of them fly Offline or in Dog Fight servers.

Offline the experience with AI become to easy to kill i suppose,
so the AI were given better routines to improve offline experience,
but this made it difficult in CooP missions where the AI can be predominate and make up 70% of the aircraft in the mission
making it a nightmare with crazy AI maneuvers everywhere and instant ace makers blowing your brains out.

So your experience with the AI behavior is different from a lot of us who have had them fly straight and level as drones to rolling flipping and zoom climbing freaks,
but were are grateful somethings being done with the AI but the day they do a "Split S" or "Cuban 8" in a fight will be a welcome one.

Im sure the AI are constantly on the "improvement list" and are definitely heading in the right direction.

Originally Posted by MaxGunz

Whoever told you that or however you got that idea, it is wrong. 75% of downed planes pilots never saw their attacker.

But you can read stories and construct a selective reality, join Gaston and start preaching that FW-190's were actually better low speed turners than Spitfires and other I-can-read-words nonsense.

Play nice please.

[K_Freddie]

Originally Posted by Pugo3

1) Previously, if the AI aircraft's performance in Quick mission is greater that yours, it climbs away to begin a series of endless 'jousting' head on passes/bounces. No dogfighting ever, just jousting - endless jousting. Has anyone else ever been able to close in dogfight a P-51 with a Me 109, Fw 190?

There are way's of countering this, but you have to quick on the controls.
if you're the target.. you must lead the attacker in a ever tightening turn. without letting it's nose get a lead on you. Pointing directly at you is fine as the deflection will cause it to miss.
Watching the a/c all through the attack, it will break off and zoom off. This is when you flip, in a flick-turn (after a bit of practise) and you have your nose pointing at him for a passing shot. Speed is not important.. doing damage is.

After a few of those.. the AI will bugger off, a human most likely will not try a second attack.

Originally Posted by Pugo3

2) If one chooses to dogfifght with multiple AI aircraft, for some unknown reason the AI aircraft become rocket powered, absolutely boosted performance. I actually most time enjoy this as it ads challenge, but at the same time I'm aware that this is an inaccuracy, and I would like to see how I would fare against multiple aircraft with realistic flight characteristics maintained even with increased number of advesaries.

DF's were more popular in the beginning of WW2, and less so towards the end, but they did happen.
All the conflicting combat reports are most probably factual, what of course is missing is the aircraft and pilot quality, and the exact situational details at the time of the report. This seems to have led to conflicts in interpretation with the armchair combat pilots here.

Doing it as you say, will increase you situational awareness considerably, as you learn to keep track of multiple aircraft. You also develop better tactics when handling multiple attackers.

[Bearcat]

Originally Posted by Pugo3

While I'm on the subjsect of aircraft performance...

I've read mostly positive reviews of the 4.11 - 4.12 patches regarding the improvements to AI characteristics. All good, I look forward to installing these patches, thanks to the good people and their work on our behalf. However, have the following issues been addressed?

1) Previously, if the AI aircraft's performance in Quick mission is greater that yours, it climbs away to begin a series of endless 'jousting' head on passes/bounces. No dogfighting ever, just jousting - endless jousting. Has anyone else ever been able to close in dogfight a P-51 with a Me 109, Fw 190?

It actually did happen, no, really it did. Honest to God, it really did happen occasionally.

I can only do so using another simm. Never mind this is not historical in the main, that the vast majority of encounter were close in dogfighting. The opportunity to see how one aircraft would compare in a dogfight with another is N/A - my chief complaint with Il-2 over the years. I know many love jousting and bouncing, but would it hurt to at least somehow be able just once to acutally dogfight another aircraft? Just once?

2) If one chooses to dogfifght with multiple AI aircraft, for some unknown reason the AI aircraft become rocket powered, absolutely boosted performance. I actually most time enjoy this as it ads challenge, but at the same time I'm aware that this is an inaccuracy, and I would like to see how I would fare against multiple aircraft with realistic flight characteristics maintained even with increased number of advesaries.

Love Il-2, many thanks to all who created it and are working to improve the product. Just please accept as recommendations to improve the brand.

First of all in the QMB you have to make all of your wingmen aces or veterans.. otherwise they will not support you correctly .. secondly if you have more than one flight of enemies make your enemies average or rookies .. if you have 3 flights you can make one flight a veteran flight. If you do not do this you will be gangbanged before you know it and you will be very frustrated. The AI in 4.12.1 is very good.. the best it has ever been. I would like to see the ability to set individual pilot skillsets in the QMB instead of flight skill sets..

[Pugo3]

I thought it best to avoid directly answering the one respondant who demonstrates the unfortunate tendancy of too many forum perons these days to reply with rather condenscending, dismissive, and demeaning remarks after first misrepresenting and attaching all sorts of malice to my comments. Such persons are best left to themselves, a fitting punishment in itself.

It is an historical fact that 51's and 47's did dogfight with German fighters on occasion, the accounts are plentiful and you've all read them, no need to make this string a mulitpage tangle of combat accounts quotes to make the point. In QMB, a 51 and 47 will not dogfight, only fly away and joust. Mock, dispute, slander, misrepresent all you wish if you are so inclined, this stands.

Fly a Bf 109E7 against a Spitfire V 1941 one on one.
Fly a Bf 109E7 against a squadron of Spitfire V 1941. Nevermind what our dismissive associate states, see for yourself. Not rocket powered, of course this was overstated, but definitely all Spits are demonstably faster, with higher climbs rates, etc. Try it with other enemy AI aircraft your familiar with.

I inquired only if these failings had been addressed. No honest person of worth would consider this a request for making the game unrealistic. Rather, both of these shortcomings detract from the game and if anything render it unrealistic by not allowing one to experience this aspect of combat flying.

thanks to all who replied with constructive comments while maintaining personal integrity and good faith.

[Woke Up Dead]

Originally Posted by Pugo3

Fly a Bf 109E7 against a Spitfire V 1941 one on one.
Fly a Bf 109E7 against a squadron of Spitfire V 1941. Nevermind what our dismissive associate states, see for yourself. Not rocket powered, of course this was overstated, but definitely all Spits are demonstably faster, with higher climbs rates, etc. Try it with other enemy AI aircraft your familiar with.

I don't know how or why multiple opponents would get this "boost" that they wouldn't get in a 1v1. I think it can only be perception; even if you're watching your energy you still have to make more energy-consuming moves than any single opponent, so they end up higher and faster than you. I experience the same thing online, where I know my opponents don't get a performance boost just by being close to each other.

[MaxGunz]

You come out with a falsehood from the start and somehow you're a victim.
Predictable.

9-1-1? Please send the Whaaaaambulance!

[Pugo3]

Originally Posted by MaxGunz

You come out with a falsehood from the start and somehow you're a victim.
Predictable.

9-1-1? Please send the Whaaaaambulance!

See above reply, nothing new here, only a reveal of the essence of the one making such remarks.

p3

[Fenrir]

Originally Posted by Pugo3

I thought it best to avoid directly answering the one respondant who demonstrates the unfortunate tendancy of too many forum perons these days to reply with rather condenscending, dismissive, and demeaning remarks after first misrepresenting and attaching all sorts of malice to my comments. Such persons are best left to themselves, a fitting punishment in itself.

It is an historical fact that 51's and 47's did dogfight with German fighters on occasion, the accounts are plentiful and you've all read them, no need to make this string a mulitpage tangle of combat accounts quotes to make the point. In QMB, a 51 and 47 will not dogfight, only fly away and joust. Mock, dispute, slander, misrepresent all you wish if you are so inclined, this stands.

Fly a Bf 109E7 against a Spitfire V 1941 one on one.
Fly a Bf 109E7 against a squadron of Spitfire V 1941. Nevermind what our dismissive associate states, see for yourself. Not rocket powered, of course this was overstated, but definitely all Spits are demonstably faster, with higher climbs rates, etc. Try it with other enemy AI aircraft your familiar with.

I inquired only if these failings had been addressed. No honest person of worth would consider this a request for making the game unrealistic. Rather, both of these shortcomings detract from the game and if anything render it unrealistic by not allowing one to experience this aspect of combat flying.

thanks to all who replied with constructive comments while maintaining personal integrity and good faith.

Excuse me for incredulousness at your post when you expect the developers to pander to your desire for dogfight entertainment and reverse years of attempting to make this game as realistic as the limitations of the engine & platform allow.

The AI as in it's current 4.12 form are the most realistic I have seen; in co-ops I find it difficult at times to tell the breathers from the bots. That in and of itself speaks volumes to me about the excellent work FC has done in manipulating the AI dogfight routines.

If my critique of your flying style came across as condescending then it was as a direct result of your ill-informed, presumptuous and mildly insulting post; not to me but to FC, who I suspect has devoted hundreds of - no doubt frustrating - man hours of investigating, experimenting and tweaking the code to get it to the frankly best level I've seen in any sim of late.

I stand by my opinion of why I think you are running into difficulties and why the AI *appear* to you to be turbo boosted. True an element is down to the AI knowing to the second how long they can risk overheating in WEP and are perfectly trimmed in all flight regimes, however if you fight smart you can negate these attributes with your ability to abstract and read the overall fight picture in a way no AI can hope to.

I don't deny more than one-turn dogfights did happen; but their frequency was so low as to be a tiny fraction of the overall percentage. 9 times out of 10 the victim did not even see their attacker.

On top of this your reference to P-51/P-47 combat reports is crucially flawed. The vast majority of the Jagdwaffe pilots by the 1944 era were inexperienced, rushed through training and could just about handle the skills to takeoff land and fly formation; they did not have the tactical nous to be able to understand the dogfight environment and pulled all the wrong moves when defensive; as such because they had such little experience in handling their aircraft at or beyond the limits of it's performance or crucially where their advantages lay against their opponents they bleed their E and just make the job easier for the teamworking USAAF fighter jocks.

Oh, hang on, that scenario sounds familiar... like someone whining that they keep getting gang-banged by teamworking AI that keeps up it's E. Hmmmm. Funny that.