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[Kamak86]

What about second in command? or do you have to have the ratings reguardless

[Whiskey Red]

Originally Posted by Kamak86

What about second in command? or do you have to have the ratings reguardless

You do have to have the appropriate ratings. In addition, the aircraft must require two crew members in order for second in command time to be logged. In other words, if two pilots are flying a twin Cessna (say a 310) neither could log SIC because the aircraft does not require the second crewmember.

[redtiger02]

Originally Posted by Whiskey Red

You do have to have the appropriate ratings. In addition, the aircraft must require two crew members in order for second in command time to be logged. In other words, if two pilots are flying a twin Cessna (say a 310) neither could log SIC because the aircraft does not require the second crewmember.

OK, that's not entirely correct based on the latest FARs. If the 310 is operating for hire, as in photo work, the SIC can be logged because it requires a 2 man operating crew, you can log SIC but not PIC. SIC on a normal flight is at discrection. If you hold a multi rating and share the flying duties then it's between you and the PIC who logs what time in what role.

[Whiskey Red]

Originally Posted by redtiger02

OK, that's not entirely correct based on the latest FARs. If the 310 is operating for hire, as in photo work, the SIC can be logged because it requires a 2 man operating crew, you can log SIC but not PIC. SIC on a normal flight is at discrection. If you hold a multi rating and share the flying duties then it's between you and the PIC who logs what time in what role.

I agree with you partially. Technically part 61.55 does state that "a person may serve as a second in command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second in command pilot flight crewmember."

Keep in mind that the operations requirement states PILOT flight crewmember. Your photographer would not count as a required pilot flight crewmember because a non-pilot can perform those duties. The guy flying the airplane would log PIC time, not SIC time. The plane still only requires one pilot to fly. Keep in mind that if at any time the pilot allows you to be the "sole manipulator of the controls," then you are logging PIC time if you are qualified in that aircraft (61.51(e)(1)(i).

Also, it is not at the discretion of the two pilots if the plane does not require the second crewmember or the operation does not specifically call for a second in command pilot. If that were so, I could log second in command any time I flew in a Cessna 182 with my buddies. The plane must require the second crewmember, or, if the operations require the second pilot, they must be approved by the FAA.

I agree, the reg is long and poorly worded (like most of the FARs) but always stay on the conservative side. You might have a hard time convincing the feds that you needed to be logging SIC time in a C-310.

In addition, the definition of SIC pilot qualifications changes based on what part of the 14 CFRs you are operating under (part 121, 61, or part 135).

I really do not want to get into a debate over the FARs, however. My point is still the same in either case. He still must have at least a private pilot certificate (or commercial based on which part he is operating under), and be current and certified in the appropriate category and class (and type if a type rating is required).

Also, only one person at a time can log pic time unless one them is a current and qualified flight instructor actively giving instruction.

Also, Kamak86, I appologize for digressing too much from your original topic. Just yell at me if I start to go off .

[Kamak86]

Originally Posted by Whiskey Red

I agree with you partially. Technically part 61.55 does state that "a person may serve as a second in command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second in command pilot flight crewmember."

Keep in mind that the operations requirement states PILOT flight crewmember. Your photographer would not count as a required pilot flight crewmember because a non-pilot can perform those duties. The guy flying the airplane would log PIC time, not SIC time. The plane still only requires one pilot to fly.

Also, it is not at the discretion of the two pilots if the plane does not require the second crewmember or the operation does not specifically call for a second in command pilot. If that were so, I could log second in command any time I flew in a Cessna 182 with my buddies. The plane must require the second crewmember, or, if the operations require the second pilot, they must be approved by the FAA.

I agree, the reg is long and poorly worded (like most of the FARs) but always stay on the conservative side. You might have a hard time convincing the feds that you needed to be logging SIC time in a C-310.

In addition, the definition of SIC pilot qualifications changes based on what part of the 14 CFRs you are operating under (part 121, 61, or part 135).

I really do not want to get into a debate over the FARs, however. My point is still the same in either case. He still must have at least a private pilot certificate (or commercial based on which part he is operating under), and be current and certified in the appropriate category and class (and type if a type rating is required).

Ok, im just trying to get an idea of what i have to do, I have a private's. The plane is a C-404, with 1 pilot and 1 camera man. I would be hired on as a camera man for their company. Once the photos are taken they would land and refuel. Then the pilot and i would take off and fly the plane to the homebase as a dead leg. I might try and call my local FSDO and try and see what they say.

If the PIC was a CFI would that change anything on the dead legs?

[redtiger02]

Originally Posted by Kamak86

Ok, im just trying to get an idea of what i have to do, I have a private's. The plane is a C-404, with 1 pilot and 1 camera man. I would be hired on as a camera man for their company. Once the photos are taken they would land and refuel. Then the pilot and i would take off and fly the plane to the homebase as a dead leg. I might try and call my local FSDO and try and see what they say.

If the PIC was a CFI would that change anything on the dead legs?

The status of the PIC isn't a factor to the FAA. You just have to show that you did fly the plane at least part of the flight and that you are considered essential crew by the PIC. It's a good idea to get him to sign the notes section of your logbook saying that you were essential crew and that you did at least some of the flying. Just do it on the first entry and they won't question the rest of them in that aircraft. The FARs on multi time are a very grey area on what multi time you can and can't log. Have your PIC put the log entry in there and his CFI number, if anyone had a question about the entry that should erase all doubt. The CFI is an all-knowing, all-seeing pilot to the FAA, so it's a good way to cover your bases.

[redtiger02]

One thing though, if you don't have a multi rating and your PIC is a CFI, you can probably get a multi rating on the first flight. Multi engine private only requires a checkout with a rated CFI. If you want multi commercial, you're in for some big money. The checkout it nothing special if you already have high-performance and complex endorsements. Just do everything twice. The only new skill he will teach you is feathering. It's nothing special, just like in any high performance you pull the prop RPM, only it will have a barrier break, where you twist it 1/2 turn and pull it all the way to completely coarse out the prop so as to make it perpindicular to the wing. You just do that to prevent windmilling, where you are catching drag on the dead engine that causes a yaw instability. My only real dead engine was in a Twin Commander, so outside of 1 experience and the training received beforehand, I don't have anything else useful to tell you. Multi time + CFI as PIC = multi rating for you. Go Kamak!

[Whiskey Red]

Originally Posted by redtiger02

The status of the PIC isn't a factor to the FAA. You just have to show that you did fly the plane at least part of the flight and that you are considered essential crew by the PIC. It's a good idea to get him to sign the notes section of your logbook saying that you were essential crew and that you did at least some of the flying. Just do it on the first entry and they won't question the rest of them in that aircraft. The FARs on multi time are a very grey area on what multi time you can and can't log. Have your PIC put the log entry in there and his CFI number, if anyone had a question about the entry that should erase all doubt. The CFI is an all-knowing, all-seeing pilot to the FAA, so it's a good way to cover your bases.

This is also false!

It is not up to the PIC to decide who gets to log what in their logbook! The rules are very specific. I'm not really even sure what you're talking about at this point.

Also, we are not all knowing or all seeing! Believe me! We make plenty of mistakes too! You need an MEI or nothing!

Read my other post. It tells you exactly what you need to have in order to log PIC or SIC time. Read part 61 of the FARs! I do not know where redtiger is getting this information.

[Whiskey Red]

Unfortunately, if, for no other reason, because you are not twin rated, you cannot log any multi-time (PIC or otherwise). If he is an MEI (meaning that he is a multi-engine instructor) then on the dead leg, in this case (since it sounds like you're just operating under parts 61 and 91), you could log duel received (and he will need to sign your logbook). However; remember, he must be an MEI. If he is a CFI or CFII, then you still won't be able to log the time.

I think we may be diverging from this forum's intent a tad bit . Be careful when you ask a CFI a question about flying. You may not be able to get him to shut up!

I really do hope this helps. I'm just telling you the way it is written. It is still good experience to fly in a twin, even you aren't logging time, however.

[redtiger02]

Originally Posted by Whiskey Red

Unfortunately, if, for no other reason, because you are not twin rated, you cannot log any multi-time (PIC or otherwise). If he is an MEI (meaning that he is a multi-engine instructor) then on the dead leg, in this case (since it sounds like you're just operating under parts 61 and 91), you could log duel received (and he will need to sign your logbook). However; remember, he must be an MEI. If he is a CFI or CFII, then you still won't be able to log the time.

I think we may be diverging from this forum's intent a tad bit . Be careful when you ask a CFI a question about flying. You may not be able to get him to shut up!

I really do hope this helps. I'm just telling you the way it is written. It is still good experience to fly in a twin, even you aren't logging time, however.

If he is essential crew and the CFI is an MEI he can log it as training, at the dicretion of the CFI. I'm II and MEI and see this situation all the time in the DFW area. My original reply was assuming that he was already multi rating, hence the additional comment of using the first flight as his checkout. Multi is wrapped up in the same debate that Sport/Recreational pilot is, as in what time gets counted towards what. AOPA has a pretty good writeup about the technicalities. Use your first flight to get multi rated, then do a least some of the flying and be signed off as essential crew on the flight. I do need to specify, as what I said earlier was kinda vague.

If you are taking pictures, you are not at the controls and can't log the time. But, see if he will let you fly to your target area and then run the dead leg back. I did some work for USGS when I first got out of the Army in '05 and that is how I got my multi rating. Just remember my advice, and remember it well: IF YOU DON'T REMEMBER IF THE GEAR ARE DOWN OR NOT ON LANDING, THEY AREN'T.