4.13 development update discussion and feedback

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by CzechTexan

So my thoughts about the A/I were right! A few days ago I just noticed that the Roookie enemy kicked Veteran butts and that something was definitely wrong. A/I has improved but this Super-Rookie issue needs to be fixed. Until then I guess I won't use Rookies but will use Average A/I instead.

Just to fact check things, I ran a couple of 16 vs. 16 AI missions.

QMB. Bessarabia Map, no flak or objective, 1000 m altitude, no advantage to either side, clear weather. 16 Ace Bf-109E-7 vs. 16 Rookie I-16 Type 24.

Results were consistently massive victory for the Bf-109s, with a 16:1 or better kill ratio.

The only unrealistic rookie AI behavior I saw was on the first mission were a rookie I-16 was able to follow a slightly damaged Bf-109 into a vertical climb, score crippling damage on it at 400 m, and then come out above the Bf-109 at the top of the loop to kill it.

Since I had "Arcade Mode" on, I got to see AI behavior commands as well. Bf-109 were attacking by flight, with the lead plane consistently using energy attack, and the other three planes in the flight performing various forms of defensive cover.

I-16 used turn attacks, and periodically used defensive moves, as well as "panicking". In one case, I watched a slightly damaged I-16 accidentally enter a spin and crash.

So, based on those results, I'd say that AI is pretty good and returns the expected results.

If there's a problem for me, it's that Ace AI doesn't use energy fighting tactics quite as well as it might.

Obviously, though, there are situations where there are problems with Ace/Veteran AI using stupid tactics.

[CzechTexan]

OK, maybe I was jumping the gun by condemning the A/I. Maybe the situation in my mission put the Veterans in a bad position to counter effectively.

[71stMastiff]

Steam will not update to this version> anything above 4.12.2m why?

[Music]

My only gripes with A.I. is their tendency to all focus on my plane, seems every mission, first pass onto the furball, and half the A.I. have decided to target me, not my wing men, just me, shoulder shooting and even colliding when there are four (4) or five (5) 100m off my 6.
(I fly invincible, & unlimited ammo off line, so I just wait them out)

And their ability to see through the tail of their plane, even when they are chasing a target.

And I had a bunch of B-29 gunners targeting me through a cloud today, right through, neither of us was in the cloud, it was between us, and all these tracers flying out of it.

They tend to stay in burning planes too long, and they pull a lot of neg G's.

But some times, most of the time, they act like, or seem to act like real planes, and you forget it's a game.

.2 is Dl'ing now, thanks DT

[shelby]

WIP

www.youtube.com/watch?v=SS4dpUza7-M

[majorfailure]

Originally Posted by Music

My only gripes with A.I. is their tendency to all focus on my plane, seems every mission, first pass onto the furball, and half the A.I. have decided to target me, not my wing men, just me, shoulder shooting and even colliding when there are four (4) or five (5) 100m off my 6.
(I fly invincible, & unlimited ammo off line, so I just wait them out)

Have you ever tried not entering the fight first? Should work, AI tend to focus on first plane in view. And even if they focus on you, it should not happen that you get them all on your six. Are you familiar with the concept of energy fighting? You may want to have a look at this:
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/.../inpursuit.pdf
Short summary is:
You enter a fight only if you have clear picture how to disengage if all goes south. That is easy if you are in a plane that has either a clear advantage in top speed or climb rate (You in a Bf109F(any)/g-2, enemy in a Yak-1/Hurricane/P-40/...). Then you can enter a fight even with a slight disadvantage in altitude. With other plane combinations you have to have an altitude advantage or numerical superiority to even stand a chance. And you try to use maneuvering that does not cost energy, when the enemy turns in a plane that turns better than yours you do not follow, you pull up, roll, pull down, level out and are behind and above the enemy again. You never give up position willingly, so if an enemy does a split-S or dives, you usually do not follow him, at least as long as there are other possible enemies around.

Originally Posted by Music

And their ability to see through the tail of their plane, even when they are chasing a target.

They cannot see through tails any more, but they still seem to have perfect and instant coverage of their field of view as soon as they are in combat.
While i flight their vision seems to be limited now, it is possible but rare to shoot them down unaware, dive below their six out of their field of view, and use your energy to catch them from the lower rear. Works best with planes that have a blocked rear view, e. g. Macchi 205.[/QUOTE]

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by CzechTexan

OK, maybe I was jumping the gun by condemning the A/I. Maybe the situation in my mission put the Veterans in a bad position to counter effectively.

I'm not questioning your experience. I think there are situations where Ace or Veteran AI isn't as "smart" as it should be, and where Rookies are too good. But, initial conditions and altitude might make a big difference.

In the "furball" missions I generated, I noticed a tendency for the Ace Bf-109 to follow Rookie I-16 pilots down to near ground level (albeit later in the fight when odds were massively in favor of the Germans), rather than maintaining their altitude. Early in the fight, the Bf-109 weren't as aggressive about getting and maintaining an altitude advantage as they could be.

In all cases, Ace wingmen weren't as good as they could be about covering the lead plane's rear. The one Bf-109 shootdown I saw could have easily been prevented had the lead plane's #2 maintained proper position, or if the AI was trained to do a proper "drag and bag" or "Thatch weave" team attack.

While it's realistic, there were also a few cases where I observed "shoulder shooting" by AI planes - especially late in the fight when there were lots of Germans and few Soviets. But, Aces should have better situational awareness and fire discipline, both to stay out of the way of a friendly plane's line of fire, and to stop shooting when a friendly plane pops up between them and the target.

[eduzk]

An idea that I would find interesting: formation tactics, according to historical situation.

A flight's tactics would be set for each flight pre-mission (and be found in your mission briefing). The leader-wingman -pair system, that every fighter AI currently uses, was historically one of the Axis' tactical advantages early in the war.

Apparently the Soviet doctrine, before they learned from their experiences, was that a flight of three would stay in close formation in combat, and everyone would fire their guns when the leader did.

A rookie AI could of course get excited and completely ignore any tactics he's supposed to follow.

[RPS69]

Originally Posted by eduzk

Apparently the Soviet doctrine, before they learned from their experiences, was that a flight of three would stay in close formation in combat, and everyone would fire their guns when the leader did.

The VIC formation from the british when attacking bombers applied the same tactics. Particularly with the Hurricanes.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by RPS69

The VIC formation from the british when attacking bombers applied the same tactics. Particularly with the Hurricanes.

There are many improvements which could be made to AI, particularly when it comes to flight, section, and squadron tactics.

The most fundamental change, seemingly simple, but probably a lot of work to implement, is to give the mission builder (in FMB) or player (in QMB and formation commands) the ability to designate whether the "base unit" for formations is 1, 2 or 3 planes.

If the base unit is one plane, each plane maneuvers on its own. If the base unit is 2 planes, they use "rotte" or "loose deuce" tactics, and sections maneuver using "finger four" or "schwarme" tactics. If the base unit is 3 planes, they maneuver in "vics" or "line abreast" using bomber or early war fighter tactics.

Realistically, planes without radios are limited to single plane base formations, and player commands don't work unless the planes within the player's formation are within 100 m or so of the lead plane and have visual on him.

Other commands for AI, which would be easier to implement, would be "Attack with guns/rockets/bombs/torpedoes/guided bombs." and "Attack on my command". For unguided bombs, there would be an additional command: "Attack type dive bomb/glide bomb/level bomb/skip bomb." These commands could be linked to "Attack X" target, to make AI planes in the player's formation attack a particular target using a particular type of weapon, and "hold fire" until commanded to attack.

Example, for medium bombers with strafing capacity. "Attack Ground" > "Attack with bombs" > "Level bombing" > "Attack on my command" gets the entire formation to drop bombs from level bombing formation on the target of the lead plane's choice, as soon as the lead plane drops its bombs.

Or, for fighters flying in "vic" formation of 3, "Attack my target (air)" > "Attack with guns" > "Attack on my command" gets all the planes in the player's formation to start shooting as soon as he does.