Ju-87G Stuka

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by RPS69

On the other side, Stuka G weapons, were reasonably effective, the main problem with the aircraft itself, was it's low surviving capability once it was attacked by enemy fighters... as long as enemy fighters weren't as useless as the ones on Rudel's accounts.

It's not that Soviet fighters were useless, it's that Rudel was amazingly good. There's one incident where went up against an ace Soviet pilot (probably Lev Shestakov) while flying a Stuka and won.

Originally Posted by RPS69

I use it at 300m, and calculate firing time by dive angle, and height. When I reach near convergence distance, I fire a single shot, and take care to climb again. Is useless to try a second shot, because you will only score near misses on the sides of the tank. Thay are a damn small target.

This is exactly how you do it.

45-60* dive angle aiming at the tank's rear deck, while trying to keep your airspeed down. Time your shot for 300 m or closer, take your shot and then immediately pull out of your dive so that you just miss the ground.

Flaps and dive brakes up, full throttle, and then some sort of evasive action - like a climbing turn - while you extend range and regain altitude.

In the game, you can make repeated attacks. In real life, pilots who survived to become veteran pilots learned that it was "one and done" - unless you were absolutely sure that any flak in the area had been neutralized.

Originally Posted by RPS69

IL2 tanks won't change direction and make your aim somewhat more difficult. Same as ships, they don't engage on evasive maneuvers, so it is actually easier to score a shot, because tanks are trotting ducks on a row.

There's also that stupid, predicable "bump and turn" obstacle avoidance routine that all ground vehicles in IL2 use. If you take out the lead vehicle in a convoy, you know exactly how the rest of the convoy will react and you can use that to your advantage.

At least for convoys of soft vehicles or lightly armored vehicles, you take out the flak guns first. Then you take out the lead vehicle which will bring the rest of the convoy to a stop. For soft vehicles, you can then strafe down the column, working from front to back. For AFVs, pick them off one by one making side or rear attacks, but starting from the front of the convoy.

[Furio]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

It's not that Soviet fighters were useless, it's that Rudel was amazingly good. There's one incident where went up against an ace Soviet pilot (probably Lev Shestakov) while flying a Stuka and won.

Amazing is not enough, “incredible” is more fitting word. Any Russian fighter had an enormous speed and manoeuvrability advantage over a Stuka, so big that no pilot’s ability on earth could balance it, if not by pure chance. If ever happened, this incident demonstrates just luck.

[RPS69]

Originally Posted by Furio

Amazing is not enough, “incredible” is more fitting word. Any Russian fighter had an enormous speed and manoeuvrability advantage over a Stuka, so big that no pilot’s ability on earth could balance it, if not by pure chance. If ever happened, this incident demonstrates just luck.

I don't share this. Low level flyers, with good maneuver capacity, were tough targets. Fast fighters, trained to hit and run, see those targets as a good opportunity to start a nice and long chat with the worms.

Many of this planes at slow speeds, got better maneuver capacity than the fighters themselves, and they were also better at low level handling.

A fighter pilot trained to dive and shoot as near as possible, will see a low level flying aircraft as a "not on the manual" procedure.
If they overshoot, they were most likely to end six feet under, without the need for a grave digger.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by RPS69

I don't share this. Low level flyers, with good maneuver capacity, were tough targets. Fast fighters, trained to hit and run, see those targets as a good opportunity to start a nice and long chat with the worms.

That's exactly what happened. Rudel was a master of his aircraft and was able to make sharp evasive maneuvers at close to ground level. His opponent either took a lucky shot from Rudel's rear gunner and/or stalled out with too little altitude to recover.

Rudel only knew that he'd won the fight when his rear gunner told him the Soviet plane had crashed, which tells you that he was utterly focused on defense.

By rights, Rudel should have been dead, but his opponent got greedy for the kill, got sucked into a low speed maneuver fight, and then screwed up (or got unlucky) doing it.

Smart tactics for the Soviet pilot would have been to get a few of his buddies together and do "Thatch weave" beam attacks by sections. Twisty, windy, slow speed evasive tricks only work well against one opponent. They don't work so well if you're bracketed by 2 or 4 fighters.

[Furio]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

That's exactly what happened. Rudel was a master of his aircraft and was able to make sharp evasive maneuvers at close to ground level. His opponent either took a lucky shot from Rudel's rear gunner and/or stalled out with too little altitude to recover.

Rudel only knew that he'd won the fight when his rear gunner told him the Soviet plane had crashed, which tells you that he was utterly focused on defense.

By rights, Rudel should have been dead, but his opponent got greedy for the kill, got sucked into a low speed maneuver fight, and then screwed up (or got unlucky) doing it.

Smart tactics for the Soviet pilot would have been to get a few of his buddies together and do "Thatch weave" beam attacks by sections. Twisty, windy, slow speed evasive tricks only work well against one opponent. They don't work so well if you're bracketed by 2 or 4 fighters.

Ju87D had a wing loading of 196 kg./m2. The Yak 9t (not the lighter of Russian fighters) had a wing loading of 176 kg/m2. Why the Yak should stall at higher speed than the Dora? Or how the Dora should manoeuver better at low altitude?
In any case, if not by luck and chance, a Stuka can win only if the fighter pilot is incompetent or makes a series of bad mistakes. History demonstrated that slow and lightly armed bombers were easily shot down, regardless their pilots and gunners ability. And Rudel's memories.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Furio

Ju87D had a wing loading of 196 kg./m2. The Yak 9t (not the lighter of Russian fighters) had a wing loading of 176 kg/m2. Why the Yak should stall at higher speed than the Dora? Or how the Dora should manoeuver better at low altitude?

I have no idea. Rudel didn't describe the incident in detail. He claims that the Russian pilot was either shot by his gunner or lost control due to the backwash of the Stuka's propeller. All we know is that Rudel and his gunner survived and the Russian pilot did not.

The incident is possibly historically accurate, since the Soviet ace Shestakov went missing in the same operational area where Rudel was operating. Beyond that, there's no real evidence.

But, I think that we're in agreement that the odds heavily favor a competently-flown fighter against a Stuka.

[Furio]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

I have no idea. Rudel didn't describe the incident in detail. He claims that the Russian pilot was either shot by his gunner or lost control due to the backwash of the Stuka's propeller. All we know is that Rudel and his gunner survived and the Russian pilot did not.

The incident is possibly historically accurate, since the Soviet ace Shestakov went missing in the same operational area where Rudel was operating. Beyond that, there's no real evidence.

But, I think that we're in agreement that the odds heavily favor a competently-flown fighter against a Stuka.

The point is: all we know is what Rudel told about this encounter. And his tale is very suspicious. He was flying a plane with much slower top speed, much lower manoeuvrability and probably higher stalling speed (depending on load, of course). Its only advantage was the presence of a gunner, and we should eventually applaud gunner’s marksmanship, but we know that most, if not all, light bombers had similar defensive armament, and usually suffered heavy to appalling losses, regardless their pilots ability.

Overall, Rudel’s memories defy all the rules of probability and his victory tally makes one wonder how Germany lost the war.