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#1
08-25-2015, 10:33 PM
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I've also argued that there should be a level of quality below Rookie to simulate pilots who have no business being in a combat zone. (e.g., RAF fighter pilots fresh from training school in summer of 1940, many Soviet replacement pilots in 1941-42, and most Japanese and German replacement pilots from 1944 on). Quote:
First, in the heat of combat you might not be aware that your plane has has taken some types of critical damage - other than obvious signs like fire or sudden loss of power output or maneuverability. Second, in a dogfight, unless you can plan your disengagement and successfully implement it, you don't have any option other than to fight until the end. But, I don't think that IL2 is modeling either of those things. Any engine damage, any fuel leak, any pilot injury, or serious damage to any other aircraft systems should be an automatic disengagement from a dogfight for all but the most aggressive or desperate pilots. Average or rookie pilots should have the strong possibility of panicking when their plane is damaged, meaning that they disengage even when it is tactically unfavorable to do so. Exceptions might be made for bombers, where often it made more sense to stick with the formation than fly back to base alone through hostile territory. Quote:
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For the future: 1) Option in FMB (possibly QMB) for certain aircraft to fight more defensively than normal. - Extremely Defensive - Avoid enemy planes, break off combat if attacked, don't take anything other than the easiest shots (e.g., less than 10 degrees of deflection, within 100 meters for most weapons, 50 meters for LMG). RTB if pilot or crew is injured, if there's engine damage or fuel leaks, if the radio is shot out, or if there's serious damage to other aircraft systems. - Defensive. Avoid enemy fighters unless you've got numeric, altitude, and positional advantage, don't make repeated attacks, break off from dogfights if it is safe to do so, don't take anything other than easy shots (e.g., less than 20 degrees of deflection, within 200 meters for most weapons, 100 meters for light MG). Against bombers, only attack if you've got altitude and positional advantages. Make a single attack from a quarter where the bombers' defensive fire is weakest, at maximum effective range for your weapon (300-500 meters for cannons, 300 meters for HMG, 200 meters for LMG) and then disengage. Return to Base if there's engine damage, injury to pilot or crew, serious fuel leak, or serious damage to any other aircraft system. - Aggressive. Avoid enemy planes unless you've got at least one of numeric or altitude advantage, break off from dogfights if you're disadvantaged and its safe to do so. RTB if there's engine damage, serious fuel leak, serious damage to pilot or crew, or serious damage to any other aircraft system. - Very Aggressive. Current AI. 2) Introduce more "Human Factors" - Rookie and Average pilots might "freeze" or hesitate rather than taking shots. (This can also simulate pilots forgetting to charge their guns due to over excitement.) - Rookie and Average pilots might lose their nerve - especially when attacking large formations of enemy planes. They either refuse to attack or take shots from excessively long ranges. - Rookie and Average pilots, and possibly hard pressed Veteran pilots, might panic, causing them to break off combat even though its tactically disadvantageous to do so. This is particularly true if the pilot is wounded, his plane is damaged, and/or he is attacked by surprise. - All pilots should suffer the effects of fatigue during prolonged combat, particularly at altitude, or in fights where they pull lots of Gs. Once fatigue reaches a certain level, maneuverability and ability to pull further Gs suffers. When fatigue reaches a critical level, pilots will attempt to disengage from combat. - Introduce Discipline Levels. - Undisciplined. Pilots will regularly ignore their superiors' commands, particularly if doing so would endanger their lives. They will automatically break formation if attacked. If they break off combat, or refuse to engage in combat, they will ignore commands to return. If they engage in combat, they will refuse commands to disengage. If they break formation, they will eventually rejoin in their own good time. Undisciplined + Aggressive pilots will break formation to chase enemy planes, assuming other conditions are favorable. - Disciplined. Current AI. - Very Disciplined. Pilots automatically obey their superiors' commands unless physically unable to do so. If they RTB, they can be ordered back into combat, even if it is suicidal. 3) Introduce more tactical options in the FMB. - Alter course to avoid: fighters, bombers, flak, ships, ground vehicles, cities. This option allows planes to be even more defensive, as well as simulating planes which are trying to avoid being spotted. - Seek & Destroy: fighters, bombers, flak, ships, ground vehicles. Planes will go out of their way to find targets of the specified types, and will attack them preferentially. - Ignore: fighters, bombers, flak, ships, ground vehicles. This option allows for suicidally heroic "straight in" attacks. - Hold formation: Planes hold formation no matter what, unless incapable of doing so, or ordered to break formation by their commander. Typical behavior for most bombers, doctrine for early war British and Soviet fighter pilots, and for early to mid-war Japanese fighter. - Maneuver to avoid: fighters, flak. This option allows planes to maneuver within formation, or break formation, if attacked. If "hold formation" and "maneuver to avoid flak" options are combined, the entire formation will randomly "zig zag" to spoil flak gunners' aim. Last edited by Pursuivant; 08-25-2015 at 10:42 PM. 
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#3
08-26-2015, 09:17 AM
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In addition to the situations described, a head-on attack is a safe shot if taken from outside of the enemy's cone of fire. It's also a "fairly safe" shot if you're flying a heavily-armored, radial engine plane against a lightly-armed opponent. For example, if I'm flying a P-47, F6F or F4U vs. a Ki-43, then I won't hesitate to take 12 o'clock level shots. It saves the hassle of trying to shoot an agile target using BnZ tactics. When flying a well-armored but sluggish plane like the Buffalo Mk I, F2A2, or IL2, head-on shots are just about your only hope of shooting down faster or more agile opponents. * In all cases, if AI initiates or accepts a head-on attack, an attack from 12 o'clock high or low (or whatever angle avoids the most fire) is preferred. - AI Head-on attack preferred: Average or better quality fighter pilots vs. heavy bombers (as long as the bombers have effective rear quarter defenses). Aggressive or Very Aggressive Veteran or Ace pilots flying planes which are inferior to their opponents in both speed and maneuverability. (Cautious or Very Cautious will attempt to flee/hide in the clouds and use ambush tactics. Aggressive or Very Aggressive Rookie or Average pilots will attempt to use maneuver or BnZ tactics to gain a rear-quarter shot and die trying.) - AI Head-on shot accepted if initiated by enemy/occasionally used: Aggressive or better Veteran or Ace pilots flying planes which are superior in armor, firepower and engine durability. Chances increase if the plane they are flying is inferior in speed or maneuverability to their opponent. Average or better pilots flying planes against light or medium bombers, but only if the plane they are flying is superior in armor, firepower and engine durability. (Rookies will attempt rear quarter or beam attacks.) Sometimes, Very Aggressive or Aggressive Average or Rookie pilots will initiate or meet head-on shots rather than breaking, even if their plane is inferior in armor, firepower, or engine durability, or is superior in speed and/or maneuverability. (That is, their aggression will get the better of them, so that they make the mistake of playing the enemy's game.) - AI Head-on shot avoided/never initiated: Almost any pilot flying a plane which is inferior in frontal armor, forward firepower or engine durability, or superior in speed and/or maneuverability, except as described above. (The idea here is that AI should almost never accept a clearly unfavorable tactical situation if it's possible to get a better firing solution on the target.) * In any case, all but the most aggressive and experienced pilots will start head-on attacks too soon (at 1,000-600 meters) and break off the attack to avoid fire and maneuver for position before they get within about 200 meters. Aggressive or better pilots of Veteran or higher quality will start the attack within 600 meters and will only break off the attack at the minimum distance required to avoid a collision. * Rookie and Average pilots will have extra trouble with range and deflection estimation for head-on shots, since it wasn't typically part of gunnery training. They might even fail to line themselves up for the shot! * All but Aggressive or better pilots will break off head-on attacks if they take any damage during the attack run. Last edited by Pursuivant; 08-26-2015 at 09:28 AM.
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#4
08-26-2015, 09:39 PM
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Against fighters it should not depend on skill level -only on agressiveness - I'd bet the average Japanese pilot was quite willing to take the head on shots - despite sitting in a lightly armored plane. And while sitting in a heavily armed, heavily armoured plane may make you more confident to go head-on, an ace in just such a plane may avoid it unless any other maneuvre will favour the enemy. I do not accept head on exchanges against AI fighters - except if I'm in a) a massivley better armed plane - and not in a very good position, e. g. the possible quick kill is worth the risk. E.g. Fw190 vs. Yak. or b)my plane is just so much worse, I can only go for head-ons. Typically used for IL-2 vs fighters.
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#5
08-27-2015, 01:03 AM
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What doesn't seem to be modeled is loss of Situational Awareness (SA) due to target maneuvering, information overload, and other factors. A "simple" way to make loss of SA possible would be this: Baseline ability to retain SA is based on pilot quality. When an enemy aircraft flies into a plane's blind spot, there's an x% chance every second that AI will lose SA with respect to that plane, based on the target's range and speed. (Elements like target size, camouflage, visibility, etc. don't apply because this algorithm attempts to model the human ability to mentally track targets you can't see.) This base chance is modified upwards if the spotting plane is damaged, under attack, or pulling Gs, or if the pilot (or some of the crew) are wounded. If the other plane is pulls Gs, or gains or loses altitude while in a blind spot, there's also an upward modifier. (This is also a simplification which represents that its harder to keep track of a fast or wildly maneuvering target.) If the other plane is smoking, leaking fuel or coolant, or contrailing, there's a big downward modifier. (This represents a pilot's ability to track a plane, and follow its path, by using its smoke or vapor trail.) There's also a big downward modifier if the other plane is firing on the plane attempting to sight it. (Simulating the fact that a human can easily extrapolate a firing plane's position from the angle of the tracers going past the cockpit.) Finally, there's a cumulative penalty to keep track of targets after the first, based on pilot skill. This represents "information overload" of SA, with more distant and faster-moving targets being lost first. A simple but arbitrary formula for maximum number of objects a pilot can track at once might be (pilot skill level)^2. With Rookie pilots being assigned a skill level of 1 and Ace pilots being assigned a skill of 4. (The very high number of objects an Ace can potentially track represents the fact that ace pilots tended to excel at the sort of spatial reasoning tasks represented by SA.) If AI loses SA and is attempting to disengage, Rookie pilots will fly straight and level at top speed. (They assume that they're safe, even if they're not.) Average or better pilots will dive or climb at full power, as appropriate, while gently maneuvering to establish visual confirmation that they're not being pursued. All pilots will use clouds and terrain as cover when attempting to disengage. All pilots will fly towards friendly flak and fighter formations as a method of discouraging pursuit. If AI loses SA and is attempting to engage, it will attempt to reestablish visual contact by maneuvering. Rookie pilots will maneuver to establish line of sight to the target's last known position. Average pilots will attempt to regain line of sight by turning towards the target's last known line of travel. Veteran or better pilots maintain some degree of SA with respect to lost targets and will usually turn towards the quarter of the sky which the target currently occupies. The exact percentage depends on pilot skill, say 60% for Veteran, 90% for Ace. Otherwise, they behave like Average pilots and turn towards the target's last known line of travel. (This represents a gross simplification of the mental calculations that a human would make regarding the opponent's energy state, speed, direction of travel, maneuverability, etc. Its not intended to make AI omniscient, just to give them a better than even chance of being able to reestablish Tally.) Quote:
While any pilot will take front quarter shots if they come his way, like you said, most pilots won't go out of their way to set them up. If an enemy sets up a head-on pass where both planes can shoot each other up, even an aggressive pilot might not choose to reciprocate if it puts his plane at a disadvantage. In such cases, the "aggressive" maneuver is to briefly go defensive, rolling or diving out of your opponent's line of fire and using your opponent's commitment to the attack to gain an advantage so you can attack him from a more favorable angle. For the Japanese, it really depends on the plane. I could imagine a skilled and aggressive A6M2 pilot taking a head-on long-range shot against an allied fighter - particularly one with an inline engine - before rolling or diving out of the line of fire. The Zero driver is betting that his superior gunnery and heavy weight of his cannon fire will let him get in a fight-ending shot before his opponent can bring his guns to bear. But, I can't imagine a sensible Ki-43 pilot doing the same thing. Unless he's got laser-like gunnery skills, he's got little to gain and everything to lose. Quote:
Factors that weight AI decision towards "accept" (in order of importance): Presence of frontal armor/armor glass, superior engine durability (i.e., radial vs. inline, includes current engine damage), inferiority maneuverability vs. opponent, weight of forward firepower, self-sealing fuel tanks, superior airframe durability, inferior speed vs. opponent, inferior climb vs. opponent, fighting over friendly territory, fighting over land. Factors that weight AI decision towards "refuse" (in order of importance): Lack of frontal armor, inferior engine durability, superior maneuverability vs. opponent, inferior forward firepower, lack of self-sealing fuel tanks, inferior airframe durability (includes damage), superior speed vs. opponent, superior climb over opponent, fighting over hostile territory, fighting over water.
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#6
08-27-2015, 11:54 AM
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I don’t know if Daidalos Team guys read all of our discussion. Sometimes I hope they do, because they would read interesting things to ponder about. Sometimes I hope they don’t, because they have limited time and surely more useful things to do.
 However, in this case I have a simple question that – perhaps – could have a simple reply. Have they ever tried to limit AI field of vision? If yes, have they obtained any meaningful result? Last edited by Furio; 08-27-2015 at 11:56 AM. Reason: typo
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#7
08-28-2015, 10:32 PM
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So, yes, it is possible to limit AI visibility in the game, and most of the work is already done. It was a massive amount of work, and one of DT's triumphs for which I am eternally grateful. The only problems we've got left with regard to AI visibility is that they still seem to be a bit too good at detecting distant aircraft, correctly ranging distance, and keeping track of aircraft when they lose sight of them. We might complain about current AI abilities, but DT has actually made MASSIVE improvement compared to what AI used to be like. Last edited by KG26_Alpha; 08-28-2015 at 10:48 PM. Reason: Please remove the HTTPS:// from you tube links to ensure the forum displays them correctly.
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#8
08-29-2015, 09:00 PM
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#9
08-29-2015, 09:23 PM
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#10
08-30-2015, 08:09 AM
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4.12 finally got AI "target acquisition" more or less right, and it seems that Rookie or Average pilots can be pretty clueless if you get into their blind spots. What doesn't seem to be modeled is loss of Situational Awareness (SA) due to target maneuvering, information overload, and other factors. A "simple" way to make loss of SA possible would be this: Baseline ability to retain SA is based on pilot quality. When an aircraft flies into an AI plane's blind spot, there's an x% chance every second that AI will lose SA with respect to that plane (lose "Tally" - visual confirmation of a plane's position & type), based on the target's range and speed. (Elements like target size, camouflage, visibility, etc. don't apply because this algorithm attempts to model the human ability to mentally track targets you can't see.) This base chance is modified upwards if the spotting plane is damaged, under attack, or pulling Gs, or if the pilot (or some of the crew) are wounded. If the other plane is pulls Gs, or gains or loses altitude while in a blind spot, there's also an upward modifier. (This is also a simplification which represents that its harder to keep track of a fast or wildly maneuvering target.) If the other plane is smoking, leaking fuel or coolant, or contrailing, there's a big downward modifier. (This represents a pilot's ability to track a plane, and follow its path, by using its smoke or vapor trail.) Big downward modifier if the "lost" planes are flying in formation, as long as the viewer knows the position of at least one plane in the formation. (This simulates the fact that a human can easily determine the relative location of a hidden plane's position in formation as long as he can see at least one plane in the group.) There's also a big downward modifier if the other plane is firing on the plane attempting to sight it. (Simulating the fact that a human can easily extrapolate a firing plane's position from the angle of the tracers going past the cockpit.) Finally, there's a cumulative penalty to keep track of targets after the first, based on pilot skill. This represents "information overload" of SA, with more distant and faster-moving targets being lost first. A simple but arbitrary formula for maximum number of objects a pilot can track at once might be (pilot skill level)^2. With Rookie pilots being assigned a skill level of 1 and Ace pilots being assigned a skill of 4. (The very high number of objects an Ace can potentially track represents the fact that ace pilots tended to excel at the sort of spatial reasoning tasks represented by SA.) If AI loses SA and is attempting to disengage, Rookie pilots might fly straight and level at top speed. (They assume that they're safe, even if they're not.) Otherwise, Rookie and Average or better pilots will dive or climb at full power, as appropriate, while gently maneuvering to reestablish Tally & confirm that they're not being pursued. All pilots will use clouds and terrain as cover when attempting to disengage. All pilots will fly towards friendly flak and fighter formations as a method of discouraging pursuit. If AI loses SA and is attempting to engage, it will attempt to reestablish visual contact by maneuvering. Rookie pilots might maneuver to establish line of sight to the target's last known position (i.e., they will forget that their target isn't likely to be where they last saw it). Otherwise, Rookie and Average pilots will attempt to regain line of sight by turning towards the target's last known line of travel. Veteran or better pilots maintain some degree of SA with respect to lost targets and will usually turn towards the quarter of the sky which the target currently occupies. The exact percentage depends on pilot skill, say 60% for Veteran, 90% for Ace. Otherwise, they behave like Average pilots and turn towards the target's last known line of travel. (This represents a gross simplification of the mental calculations that a human would make regarding the opponent's energy state, speed, direction of travel, maneuverability, etc. It's not intended to make AI omniscient, just to give them a better than even chance of being able to reestablish Tally.) If you wanted to get even fancier, you could give AI (and the player!) the ability to ask where other planes are if they lose Tally. Again, not hard to implement, but time consuming, not just due to additional coding, but also due to new commands and voice programming needed. Last edited by Pursuivant; 08-30-2015 at 08:14 AM.
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Hybrid Mode
