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| IL-2 Sturmovik The famous combat flight simulator. |
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#2
07-27-2013, 10:49 PM
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An ai bomber is in reality a single unit with near global situational awareness that it exploits mercilessly; attacking Player has the left wing lined up at 300m, so the microsecond his finger presses the trigger, roll slightly right. Player has set up sufficient lead to hit the ai's fuselage while climbing, but it's concealed from him by his cowling at the moment he must fire, therefore change direction and at the precise moment he enters the rear gunner's cone of fire as the aircraft rolls, shoot out his engine or knock off his wing with a burst of LMG. No delays for communication either way, they ignore the necessity for bombers to stay in formation, and of course the gunners are accurate at all angles at distances up to 750m, or twice the Player's convergence, whichever is greater. A human player can't do that; in all honesty, no real life bomber crew had or could have had that level of awareness or communicated between each other that quickly and accurately, even after years together. And the gunners never had that kind of accuracy at any angle or range. Your 'Veteran' ai gunners are not remotely as hamstrung as the historical human beings they are supposedly simulating; if the record is any indication, bomber gunners were spectacularly ineffective throughout the war. The 8th Bomber Command would have loved to have one bullet out of every two hundred fired actually hit a German fighter. I would expect that the LW 's losses to the bomber formations would have quadrupled at the very least. cheers horseback |
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#4
07-28-2013, 03:35 PM
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Lol
your complaining about ai gunnery not being realistic tell me what part of your aircraft's guns are realistic your using to try shoot them down ? No overheating no jamming no freezing etc etc etc................. The ai gunnery is what it is, learn how to attack bombers with the games limitations. I prefer the head on attack, or across the wings high speed pass using a technique with the gunsight to extreme left or right of the screen to make it impossible for me to attack from the rear quarters, leaving the sight in these positions stops you getting in behind the bombers forcing you to attack at an angle from the side, sounds strange but it works. 
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#5
07-28-2013, 09:15 PM
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Compared to aiming with a mouse while riding on rails, I'd say it's a bit more complicated gunnery model, wouldn't you? Against an ai with exact knowledge of my aircraft's distance and vector, plus all the computing power of a modern computer (mine, without my bloody permission!), unless I randomly change directions every two seconds or so, I'm screwed at least half the time if the bugger is rated 'Ace' or 'Veteran' as soon as I get within 500 meters. When flying offline campaigns, using the tactics that were actually successful against individual, or even small groups of bombers or Me 110s or 210s is suicidal. It's a perversion of history, and it can be fixed, at least for the offline user. Slow the gunner's rate of rotating their guns. Limit their effective range to the historical levels of 150m maximum; you can increase an attacker's probability of being hit beyond that as a function of how many defending aircraft are in range. Make the aiming point a circle the diameter of the greatest visible dimension from the angle viewed; that is how human beings aim something as imprecise as a machine gun at targets that far away and coming at them rapidly. Factor in gunshake and aircraft motion. That, more than anything else, is what made hitting anything more than a couple of degrees wide so difficult with 'controllable' short bursts. Call of Duty can do it; DT should be able to as well. And we are still left to deal with the improbable fragility of the R-2800 engine and the aircraft it powered. cheers horseback |
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#6
07-28-2013, 09:54 PM
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#7
07-29-2013, 02:17 AM
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As for accuracy, I just did a set of about ten QMBs, my F6F-3 against 8 Rookie Betties. On at least five occasions, my aircraft was hit from ranges over 700 meters--and never at a six o'clock to them; it was most often while I was at a low 7 or 8 o'clock to them, twice resulting in fuel leaks, and once in loss of elevators (while my nose was pointed at the shooter
 ). At 700 meters, you can hide a Hellcat behind the tip of your thumb held at arm's length.Every pass was made on the outermost member of the formation, and generally from a high 7-8 or 4-5 o'clock angle from a minimum 700m advantage, at an minimum terminal speed of over 300kts/ 340mph/ 550kph, which usually ended in my passing behind & below his tailplane less than 30 meters away before barrel rolling out and up ahead and outside of the formation. I got hit every time, and by the fourth or fifth pass in about half the QMBs, had lost at least half my instruments. I believe that the Betty does about 300kph at most, so it wasn't like I was flying close formation with them. Attacking from those angles and speeds would have left a real Hellcat untouched against the finest gunners the IJN ever fielded; against Rookie ai, Swiss Cheese. At least one firing pass in every QMB, I was able to make a high angle 60+ degrees pass from above and behind that made both wing roots catch fire; never once did I kill the mid-ships top gunner, although I got one of the pilots about half the time and both of them on one glorious occasion (it is always cool to complete a firing pass, look over your shoulder and see a string of 'chutes popping open behind your target). I also targeted the tail gunner of one aircraft in every QMB that I survived to my third firing pass (usually a singleton, but never more than one wingman); tally was him, three engines splattered, two fuel leaks, three MGs disabled and one PK--I got him twice, once right as he nailed my engine. Again, these were passes made from off angle and usually high, although there were a couple of angled attacks from below after a dive to gain speed (these resulted in one of my kills--and one of his). In these, speed was also always above 300kts. Let's keep in mind that at 5 o'clock to my target, he has to account for a 30 degree difference in level angle, plus whatever angle up or down I was relative to him; at 4 o'clock, we are up to a 60 degree angle, and the attacker shooting directly down the axis of flight should hold all the cards. In the extreme cases, the real life gunner would not have been physically able to look at his target over his sights (too low, too high, too far to one side). I've been spending a lot of time in the Hellcat lately, so it's not a matter of not being able to exploit its capabilities, and I was conscientious about keeping my speed up and varying my angle of approach. On 6 of the QMBs, I had to take to my chute; only once did I not have engine damage or a drooping wing (there were several hits, but I got lucky). Rookie AI. Hits from ranges out to 780 meters, almost all requiring deflection in both angle and altitude. Just like the real thing. /Sarcasm off./ cheers horseback |
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#8
07-29-2013, 10:58 PM
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Planes : Ju88 and P47D Distance: 200m Test method: Both planes are on the airfield, P47 engine running. Player is in Ju88 rear gunner position. P47 is behind Ju88 with front of the engine exposed to the gunner like in typical 6 o'clock attack. Result: Bullets Fired: 1200 Bullets Hit Air: 1047 P47 engine still running although at 90% and with some components damaged. And as many times before FACTS>>>FEELINGS , P47 is one tough MOFO and for every FG guy's story about one ping kill there is a JG guy with the story about P47 soaking dozens of 30mm hits and flying away.
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#9
07-31-2013, 10:15 PM
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Fly formation 200m behind an He 111 or Betty (both of whose gunners are traditionally more accurate than those noobs in the Ju-88A) in that same P-47 and I bet your engine loss ratio goes up significantly, along your PKs, loss of gunsight, ailerons, fuel leaks(and how could any rounds possibly get past the engine and firewall to reach the fuel tanks?), rudder and Prop Pitch. Of course, that's just my feeling, but it's based on several hours of experience. AI vs AI contests may ultimately obtain 'realistic' results, but in those cases, the AI fighter knows that he's been fired at and exactly where it will hit if his vector remains constant at the moment it is fired and he makes the slight move that either results in a clean miss or a meaningless hit, but the ai gunner routine knows that he knows and quickly fires a burst at the corrected vector, but the fighter ai routine knows that he will, so they decide not to do that and move on to the next move/countermove several thousand times per second. Think of the Dread Pirate Roberts' confrontation with the Sicilian 'with death on the line' in The Princess Bride. cheers horseback |
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#10
07-28-2013, 08:27 PM
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There were two major raids on Schweinfurt in 1943: August 17th and October 14th, both considered disasters for 8th Bomber Command. The raid in August cost 60 bombers (with 10 crewmen each) lost over the Continent with another 150 or so damaged and over 40 scrapped after returning and carrying several dead and wounded crewmen. German losses along the entire Western front for the entire day: 27 aircraft (against official claims of 148 by the bombers' gunners), and another 10-13 lost in a series of sharp encounters against the 56th FG and other P-47 groups using pressurized belly tanks for nearly the first time. Some sources indicate that the actual German losses were even lower (17 was the lowest figure for the day I have read). The October disaster is generally remembered as "Black Thursday"; another 60 bombers lost, 7 more scrapped upon return, plus another 142 ‘damaged’ for German losses of 38 fighters, seven of which can be credited to the only Allied FG to successfully make rendezvous, the 353rd. Every history of the bombing campaigns of WWII makes it clear that even the fastest, highest flying heavy bombers could not defend themselves against single and twin engined fighters; even at the end of the war, US bomber formations caught without escorts took heavy casualties at the hands of relatively inexperienced German fighter formations, even 'lightly armed' ones. As I recall, both raids experienced losses in the 10% plus range, which means that there were at least 500 bombers in the skies on those days, each mounting 10 .50" heavy machine guns manned by some supposedly very well trained gunners most of whom were American farmboys raised with rifle and shotgun to supplement the family diet; it's not like they didn't know how to shoot, or lead a moving target. It's just unbelievably hard to hit a moving airplane from another moving airplane in any direction other than straight ahead or directly behind; vary the angle left, right, up or down and your firing solution becomes incredibly complicated. cheers horseback |
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