fw 190a5 flight model

[jameson]

A.S. I am surprised that you think that Me109 was capable in the turning combat. There is general opinion that BF109 was rather average when it comes to combat with many manuevers. It`s very common opinion that BF109G with its technical and tactical characteristics was rather "hunter" then turnfighter..

I.K. Lies! Me109 was exceptional in turning combat. If there is a fighter plane built for turning combat , it has to be Messer! Speedy, maneuverable,(especially in vertical) and extremely dynamic. I can`t tell about all other things, but taking under consideration what i said above, Messerschmitt was ideal for dogfight. But for some reason majority of german pilots didn`t like turn fight, till this day i don`t know why.
I don`t know what was stopping them, but it`s definitely not the plane. I know that for a fact. I remember battle of Kursk where german aces were starting "roller-coaster" rides where our heads were about to come off from rotation.
No, seriously... Is it true it`s a common thing now that Messer wasn`t maneuverable?

A.S. Yes.

I.K. Heh.. Why would people come up with something like this... It was maneuverable...by god it was.

From here:
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php...-soviet-pilot?

[JtD]

You still haven't answered Gliders challenge. I know you think you do, but you actually haven't. It's your task to simply pick one combat report you like. Nothing more. Not to post a dozen or so selected examples.

[MaxGunz]

Originally Posted by jameson

A.S. I am surprised that you think that Me109 was capable in the turning combat. There is general opinion that BF109 was rather average when it comes to combat with many manuevers. It`s very common opinion that BF109G with its technical and tactical characteristics was rather "hunter" then turnfighter..

I.K. Lies! Me109 was exceptional in turning combat. If there is a fighter plane built for turning combat , it has to be Messer! Speedy, maneuverable,(especially in vertical) and extremely dynamic. I can`t tell about all other things, but taking under consideration what i said above, Messerschmitt was ideal for dogfight. But for some reason majority of german pilots didn`t like turn fight, till this day i don`t know why.
I don`t know what was stopping them, but it`s definitely not the plane. I know that for a fact. I remember battle of Kursk where german aces were starting "roller-coaster" rides where our heads were about to come off from rotation.
No, seriously... Is it true it`s a common thing now that Messer wasn`t maneuverable?

A.S. Yes.

I.K. Heh.. Why would people come up with something like this... It was maneuverable...by god it was.

From here:
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php...-soviet-pilot?

As always, maneuverability is -relative- and not just plane to plane.

Below 4,000 ft a BoB Hurricane was able to out-turn a BoB 109 given similar starts and pilots. Above 8,000 ft the same Hurricane was hopeless in a turning fight with the same. The difference was made by relative power of both at different altitudes.

But for some reason majority of german pilots didn`t like turn fight, till this day i don`t know why.

It's because those Germans knew that you need to keep speed up to make the fight about energy and the vertical. That is what the roller coaster is all about. Hard turns are anathema to energy fighting.

[jameson]

Gunz, if I ever get to meet Major Kozhemyako, I'll be sure to pass on your thoughts, he will, i'm sure, be impressed by them.

[MaxGunz]

And you are not.

I have run the roller coaster fight in a few sims since 1990. A wingover, which requires excess speed will beat a flat turn every time.

But I did not invent these things. I learned from others who learned from others (in some cases, their Air Force instructors). AFAICT the first to effectively use the vertical in combat was Max Immelmann in 1916.

Robert Shaw covers this in his book as well, right down to the foundations.

[K_Freddie]

The 'rollercoaster' was used by the WW2 FW190 pilots too. It's in that report of ''~Arrgg!! forgotten his name) when the Spit-V first encounted the FW190.

[jameson]

Originally Posted by MaxGunz

And you are not.

I have run the roller coaster fight in a few sims since 1990. A wingover, which requires excess speed will beat a flat turn every time.

But I did not invent these things. I learned from others who learned from others (in some cases, their Air Force instructors). AFAICT the first to effectively use the vertical in combat was Max Immelmann in 1916.

Robert Shaw covers this in his book as well, right down to the foundations.

How many ww2 pilots had read Shaw?

[Igo kyu]

Originally Posted by jameson

How many ww2 pilots had read Shaw?

Obviously none. However, most of them had probably heard of the dicta:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dicta_Boelcke

or read Malan's rules:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolph_...f_Air_Fighting

Shaw's work is a superb compilation of what went before.

[MaxGunz]

Exactly. Shaw uses many historic quotes to begin his explanations. Shaw read them.

Did the Russians ever have the speed and altitude advantage to fly that way against the Germans?

Was it ever their -doctrine-?

Look into their evaluation and use of the P-47's sent to them and tell me they flew as Gabreski taught his pilots.

I have great respect for the Russian pilots but in all my reading have not seen examples of Russians using energy fighting in the GPW. Perhaps towards the end some did. The Germans OTOH kept their traditions alive and didn't have to learn the hard way what killed so many Allied pilots.