Luftwaffe bombers

[hafu1939]

Not only later Luftwaffe bombers are missing in Il 2 now. A bomber plane, which is absolutely essential for the period before and in the first years of war, is Dornier Do 17. The Do 17Z-0 and Do 17Z-2 already exist as mods. What about adopting these in the next version?

[gaunt1]

Originally Posted by hafu1939

Not only later Luftwaffe bombers are missing in Il 2 now. A bomber plane, which is absolutely essential for the period before and in the first years of war, is Dornier Do 17. The Do 17Z-0 and Do 17Z-2 already exist as mods. What about adopting these in the next version?

I deliberately didnt include that plane in my list. Do-17 is in CoD, so we cant have that plane in official patches. Only mods.

Originally Posted by IceFire

The Me410A and B with a couple of sub variants including the bomber and destroyer variants would be perfect... gives us a late war heavy fighter, important aircraft in bomber interception, and a strike bomber all in one effort. It was fairly widely used on both East and West and depending on the effort involved... the Me210 was even involved in North Africa.

The Do217 is the same thing. Used widely across all theatres, capable of carrying and being configured in a number of different ways. It can be modified to night interceptor, bomber, guided missile carrier, etc. Best of all it's already modelled externally.

completely agree with you. A Me-410 would be awesome, even without player controlled rear guns.
A flyable Do-217 would be also great in the game, especially if the M1 (K1 with DB603) and the earlier E2/E4 would be included too. Although the K/M variants were better, but personally I like the E much more. It could perform dive bomber missions (E2) too, and the had much heavier forward firing firepower than the K/M, a flexible MG-FF and a fixed MG151/20 (E2) or MG-131 + MG151/20 (E4). There are also much more documentation available for the E2/4, although I dont know if they are still available or not. But I would upload them gladly if somone needs them...
Regarding night fighter variants, (J/N) those wouldnt be useful at all in the game, even if we would have radar systems modeled. They were very very bad planes, pilots hated them. They were probably the worst night fighters of the war, their flight performance was actually worse than the bomber variants! Plus relatively few were built.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by gaunt1

I deliberately didnt include that plane in my list. Do-17 is in CoD, so we cant have that plane in official patches. Only mods.



completely agree with you. A Me-410 would be awesome, even without player controlled rear guns.
A flyable Do-217 would be also great in the game, especially if the M1 (K1 with DB603) and the earlier E2/E4 would be included too. Although the K/M variants were better, but personally I like the E much more. It could perform dive bomber missions (E2) too, and the had much heavier forward firing firepower than the K/M, a flexible MG-FF and a fixed MG151/20 (E2) or MG-131 + MG151/20 (E4). There are also much more documentation available for the E2/4, although I dont know if they are still available or not. But I would upload them gladly if somone needs them...
Regarding night fighter variants, (J/N) those wouldnt be useful at all in the game, even if we would have radar systems modeled. They were very very bad planes, pilots hated them. They were probably the worst night fighters of the war, their flight performance was actually worse than the bomber variants! Plus relatively few were built.

Seems like if we had the Do217K-1/K-2 modelled internally it would be no difference to have a M-1... just engine differences.

I wouldn't completely rule out the Do17. The Wellington is also in Cliffs of Dover but it will be in 4.12... that said, the Do17 is fairly limited in use to maps and scenarios we already have. Unless I'm seriously mistaken... they had their heyday in 1940 and were replaced by other bomber types including the Do217 later on. I've done a lot of campaign scenarios now and I don't think I've ever been wanting a Do17 to fill in a gap somewhere.

Really after 1940 the usage would be Finland's 15 aircraft but I'm not sure how extensively those were used. I've read more about the Finland modification to the Ju88 that was used than the Do17.

Interesting about the Do217 and the night fighter being really bad. I didn't know that.

[EJGr.Ost_Caspar]

Originally Posted by IceFire

I wouldn't completely rule out the Do17. The Wellington is also in Cliffs of Dover but it will be in 4.12...

The Wellington in 4.12 is a MK.III - a bit out already of the BoB phase.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by EJGr.Ost_Caspar

The Wellington in 4.12 is a MK.III - a bit out already of the BoB phase.

True that! And definitely not a BoB only type aircraft... Wellingtons used throughout the war. When they were retired from Europe operations they were still over other theatres and in Burma.

[hafu1939]

I honestly disagree. Do 17 wasn`t present only in the BoB. SCW (E, F, P), Poland (E, M, P, Z), Norway (P), BoF, Balkans, Eastern front – Do 17s were flown in all these campaigns.
Do 217E-2, E-4 – +1.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by hafu1939

I honestly disagree. Do 17 wasn`t present only in the BoB. SCW (E, F, P), Poland (E, M, P, Z), Norway (P), BoF, Balkans, Eastern front – Do 17s were flown in all these campaigns.
Do 217E-2, E-4 – +1.

Of those mentioned we have only a tiny piece of Norway and lots of Eastern Front. But it's more than just being flown... was it a major or significant type in a huge way? I could be wrong... I was about the G3M Nell bomber but my understanding is the the Do17 design had reached the end by 1941 and was replaced. I can't find any significant actions it fought. Perhaps Finland used the Do17 the most after 1941.

Again... if faced with a decision between types. I'd rather have the one that saw more use across a greater range of dates and scenarios rather than the more obscure one that isn't easily used as a historical type. A Do17 would be cool... don't get my wrong. But a Do217, it's direct successor, would be so much more useful as a flyable aircraft - IMHO. I just see it as a matter of a lot of time invested in doing a project... I'd love for it to be maximally useful. And if we're going by the premise of the OP... then we already have the Ju88 and the He111 representing two excellent early war Luftwaffe bombers. We have a lack of mid and later war bombers available as flyable. Exception being the Ar234.

[gaunt1]

Originally Posted by IceFire

Seems like if we had the Do217K-1/K-2 modelled internally it would be no difference to have a M-1... just engine differences.

Yes, exactly. The M was the same as the K, but with DB-603A engines. It boosted the top speed from 515-520 to 560, so it was the fastest bomber of LW built in significant numbers.

[Furio]

I know that we’re talking of a sim, so we should not look for “balancing”, but mid-war period is overall more playable. Luftwaffe bombers had not much meaningful use after the beginning of 1944, and exactly the same can be said for the Japanese. However, the Do217 entered service in late 1941, so it would make a lot of sense to have it.

[majorfailure]

Why should Team Daidalos or others model a bomber which most players will not use? -which imho the Do-17 would be - given the durable and well armed He-111 or the fast and versatile Ju-88 are available in the same timeframe -and both can exceed the bomb capacity of the Do-17.

The Do-217 and the He-177 outperform the currently available bombers in at least one aspect, so they would be a welcome addition -and the would get at least some attention from the players - which planes get the most attention of the players now? - Usually its the "better" performing ones -right?