soviet planes and 4.1x...

[1984]

ok, i survived after this meteorite or rocket or what it was, so, party continues...

Originally Posted by panzer1b

personally i think allowing for different ammo loadouts would be great...

it's and great, and logical, and historically correct... ie just really needful in game... and later i want to write here about some my findings about real ammunition/belting of il-2, and just about these planes...

if it is actually true that many russian planes allowed for more ammo, id very much love this option to equip 340 rounds in a yak or la5, given that those planes are basically very tough to get multiple kills in, while a fw190 i can easily get 6+ kills in a single sortie if done right

well... i really understand you... for example, when i flew much time on yaks, in 2007-2009, i'm dreamed and think about "just need some bullets, around 50 and it's will be just great for these great planes", but i don't knowed what my dreams it's REALITY and in this "great" game lot of errors...

well, it's main reasons of my reaserches, i want not empty PR of OM/MG or raving fans, i want reality and normal soviet and other planes...

but you not fully understood, 340 shells in total ie 170 for each shvak it's normal, typical ammo load for la-5 and 7, in game 340-400, although i talking about 440-480 in total for las and earlier i written about real confirmed ammoloads for yaks like 32/220 for yak-9t, 135-140/220-240 for yak-1/9, 36/170 for lagg-3 IT etc...


and, in fact, i can't understand why DT not did for fw 190a-4 and 5 trommel with 100 shells, and just not corrected number of ammunition, although, if i'm not mistaken, it's not only experimental trommels or unrealistic ammoloads...

what can be easier? especially now... but we again wait these important and absolutely simple things...

or i don't know something very secret and important...

still if it was a historical option and can be added to the game without too much effort id love to have belt configuration of the number of rounds in each belt, preferably for each gun

yes, need to find only real and historical things...

and in game really need new mechanism of choice of loads and small changes of construction for planes (for example, rear bulletproof glass for p-39, new canopy for p-47d/51b, mirrors, armor of bf 109f-4 for g-2 etc etc etc), but don't forget about orders, typical ammoloads, supply and other real things ie total free it's absolutely not historically...

itd be nice to allow for overloading ammo capacity for long missions or ground attack, and then using less(standard loadout) for short range or base defense combat.

you understood rightly, were standarts, limits and details, but were and real needs or preferences of individual pilots, plus, i think "il-2" in fact semi-historical game, but we not want nonsence or something like impossible and difficult task...

just need to search real examples and thinking...

yaks are the biggest issue for me as those have only only one 20mm with barely any ammo, and a useless 12.7mm with just as few rounds. Personally i dont even touch em on limited ammo servers as its just not much fun to return home all the time with no ammo left.

yes, need practice, understanding... and feeling of power, luke...

although, in fact, yaks have strange "realistic" FM + mainly not historical ammoloads and it's main reason why on these very simple in RL planes we need to fly very correctly... i heard what in 3.04 patch or something like this yaks were very correctly in total, but i not remember these times... and, unfortunately, here we can hopes only on BOS...

LAs are better but still a few more rounds would not hurt. most other planes are imo fine as i16s and laggs have either more ammo or just enough guns to make up for the ammo shortage per gun

about lagg-3 s4, in game have 2 very serious errors like with ammunition for il-2s - all laggs with 2 shkas in RL had 650 rounds for EACH shkas (in 4.09 325 for each shkas) and s4 never not had second UBS - ie lagg-3 s4, i repeat, just "franken plane"...

well, i wrote, a long time ago, post about real performance, FM and armament of lagg-3 s4 and other laggs-3 of early series, but found very interesting info about vya-23 for these early laggs, so, post delayed...

although, maybe, just useless to write about it here, especially, with my english...


and by the way, la-7 with 2 b-20 had 130 shells for each b-20, although full capacity of boxes apparently was 150 for each box...

also just a sidenote, now i do not have any actual source but was the SHVAK so accurate as it is in game? i mean i can actually snipe a plane easily that is within 800m and flying straight, while no other weapon can actually achieve this (hispano, japanese weapons, mgff, mg151, nothing).

all or almost all guns in game very accurate, so, it's global problem of ballistics and weapons in game, and about concrete gunnery in game - mg-151-20 are laser too, just need more effort and concentration in compare with shvak, it's personally my experience from online wars...

and i can also say about reasons what, for example, mg-151-20 it's 20×82 shell and 705 mps (805 only for minengeschoss), shvak it's 20×99R and 750-790, but it's VERY simple comparison without amount of powder in cartridge, type and quality of powder, length of barrel etc...

well, it's very complex thing, but even now you can see some of reasons...

other guns like hispano, vya-23, mg-ff, personally i think what hispano and vya-23 should be a bit better then now and personaly for me not problem to shooting at 600-800 meters from tempest...

Also i believe the mg81 is a tad to accurate as its literally a minigun with no spread (which i believe is a tad weak and for some reason has very short range)

i agree, looks very accurate, about weak or not - apparently, mainly it's problem of DM of concrete soviet planes, but in total personally i can't say what mg-81 really weak and not dangerous...

about range of fire - it's very very important theme too - i remember how read how famous pilot Vorozheikin tried to shoot diving ju-88s with around 1500 meters, in game it's just unreal even on yak-9t...

ie your example with mg-81 and others like ns-37/45, vya-23, UB ie powerful guns in compare with range of fire of .50, 37 mm gun of p-39 (63 too?) looks just strange... like and visualisation of hits of HE on ground... in fact, it's my wish for next patch, but at this moment i just don't know all true about fuses for ns-37, so, that's why i don't write about it...


well, and since we're talking about shells/belts, attached several pics, where -

1 hurri IIc in UK? personally i see in belts "2 ap - 2 he"...

2 soviet "харитон" IIc, i see only one type of shells, although, maybe, it's "staging" or because of lack of AP at this moment...

3 again, hurri IIc in UK? and again one type of shells like on previous pic...


and about shells/belts for yak-9t (later about il-2 with 2 ns-37)...

continuation of this post, apparently, need new belts for yak-9t like "только бронебойные снаряды", for AT missions (and this can help with problem of blank hits of HE shells for 37/45 mm) - example -

У меня боезапас был, что-то около 30-ти бронебойных снарядов (сколько точно уже не помню), вот я их все по танкам и расстрелял.

maybe, need and "2 HE+1AP" too for attack of "soft" ground targets (if now 1he+1ap? well, 3 belt in ideal and in total), how said pilot...

in any case, it's just logical...

and if this true, need belts like "only HE" at least for first combat tests of yak-9t (f. e. new loadout for something like "yak-9t early" with 520-530 kph at sl) -

Снаряжение патронной ленты производилось по-разному. В некоторых полках половина боекомплекта снаряжалась патронами с бронебойными (без наконечника) и осколочными снарядами. После запрета снаряжать орудия бронебойными патронами со снарядами без наконечников использовали только патроны с осколочными снарядами. Других боеприпасов на складах 16-й ВА не было.

[majorfailure]

Originally Posted by 1984

all or almost all guns in game very accurate, so, it's global problem of ballistics and weapons in game, and about concrete gunnery in game - mg-151-20 are laser too, just need more effort and concentration in compare with shvak, it's personally my experience from online wars...

I don't think its purely a problem of correct ballistics - its the players themselves. Most of us have more virtual experience than any real pilot ever had. And we can try anything -we will not be punished for stupidity or bad luck by serious injury or loss of life - a luxury no real pilot can afford. We can just comfortably lean back in our chairs -feel no exhaustion, no environmental factors, no stress, no fear, we aren't really there - its just a game.

Originally Posted by panzer1b

yaks are the biggest issue for me as those have only only one 20mm with barely any ammo, and a useless 12.7mm with just as few rounds.

Don't consider UBS useless. Beautiful ballistics, high RoF, and for a machinegun good power. Best HMG in game. Try Italian planes with dual 12.7mm BREDA-SAFATs - best gunnery training I ever did. Fly an Italian campaign vs. AI - or just QMB, if you can get multiple kills on a regular basis, most other armaments will suddenly seem powerful.

[IceFire]

No idea why people think the UBS is a useless weapon. It's by far the most powerful of the heavy machine guns with superior rate of fire, ballistics, muzzle velocity, and ultimately hitting power. I fire the UBS and ShVAK on the Yak separately. The UBS for precision hitting and the 20mm when I'm in more of a tense dogfight and I'm counting on just one or two shots connecting.

You can score 3-4 kills in a Yak. Just like you can in most other types. But you can't waste bullets and this is a great plane to train you to only make the shots you know you can hit with. Fly the same way in a FW190 and you can walk away with 6, 7...8 kills.

[1984]

finally i read this book - Пушки для боевых самолетов, А.Э. Нудельман, 1993 - well, it's just about guns in total, have some interesting details, but no more than "n-37 was tested on yak-9 and serial production started later" ie no any news for us, but, have technical information about ns-37 in total and report about lagg-3...

well, report confirms number of shells, 36, what very logically - 120-140 shells for shvak and 30-32 shells for ns-37, for yak-9, in compare 150-160/36 for lagg-3 - and have information about rate of fire, max. 290 after some shots, min. 232 after some shot, average 258 what confirms technical description of ns-37...

personally i think what info enough and it's can be fix already now, especially, because 20 vs 36 it's really difference...

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by 1984

finally i read this book - Пушки для боевых самолетов, А.Э. Нудельман, 1993 - well, it's just about guns in total, have some interesting details, but no more than "n-37 was tested on yak-9 and serial production started later" ie no any news for us, but, have technical information about ns-37 in total and report about lagg-3...

well, report confirms number of shells, 36, what very logically - 120-140 shells for shvak and 30-32 shells for ns-37, for yak-9, in compare 150-160/36 for lagg-3 - and have information about rate of fire, max. 290 after some shots, min. 232 after some shot, average 258 what confirms technical description of ns-37...

personally i think what info enough and it's can be fix already now, especially, because 20 vs 36 it's really difference...

BTW: Yak-9UT thanks to research and TD's help has 30 rounds on the NS-37mm. Which aircraft has 20 rounds? I'm having trouble following you. What is in-game and what should it be based on your research?

[panzer1b]

now i enevr said the ubs is useless but still for my playstyle it doesnt really work, nor do most mgs. now offline they are fine as its quite easy to get on an ai six, but online i tend to fly hit and run high speed interception then the more common turn fights. i prefer to get in, get a kill or at least cripple a plane, and get out before the 5 or 6 guys in the almost guaranteed furball decide that i make good cannon fodder.

now for hit and run i consider ammo capacity very important as i like to have the option to use attricion and only engage when the situation favors me, the enemy is just climbing to engage me (hes at low speed easy target), or the enemy is preoccupied trying to kill a fellow comrade which i need to save

the yaks and most russian planes with their current ammo capacity just dont give me enough staying power to maintain my altitude and take pot shots at those below at high speeds. they just dont let me stay at altitude over the enemy, and force me to either land much more, or not take the slightest risk of missing (again limiting my options as to how i engage the enemy)


and as for the italian mgs, i think they are the middle ground. they used to be terrible in 4.09 days (had white tracers and did less damage then a single 30cal would) but now at least have attained my respect as they have shot up plenty of enemies when i ran out of the generous suppply of 20mm in the mc205. Now the weakest i consider to be either the japanese 50cal equivalent and the mg131s. the jap variety has neither much firepower nor great accuracy, and the german ones have just as bad firepower with only teh accuracy being the strongpoint. 50cals are respectable as they are almost always in groups of 4+ giving quantity over quality. UBs are imo the best firepower wise but greatly limited by ammunition capacity. they are great but out of all the HMGs run out the fastest.

i know the russian guns realistically had low ammo but if there is a source that says they had more, heck even 50 rounds more id gladly appreciate the additional staying potential for the russian planes

now i know people may disagree but this is just my experience playing the game, not really anything based on game files or such but just what i have experienced while in combat for the like 10 or so years ive played this game....






now one interesting thing id like to know is why most russian planes had so few shells? was it a decision based on practice that few pilots would statistically expend so much ammo before either being shot down or returning to base?

[majorfailure]

Originally Posted by panzer1b

and as for the italian mgs, i think they are the middle ground. they used to be terrible in 4.09 days (had white tracers and did less damage then a single 30cal would) but now at least have attained my respect as they have shot up plenty of enemies when i ran out of the generous suppply of 20mm in the mc205. Now the weakest i consider to be either the japanese 50cal equivalent and the mg131s. the jap variety has neither much firepower nor great accuracy, and the german ones have just as bad firepower with only teh accuracy being the strongpoint. 50cals are respectable as they are almost always in groups of 4+ giving quantity over quality. UBs are imo the best firepower wise but greatly limited by ammunition capacity. they are great but out of all the HMGs run out the fastest.

I don't think the SAFATs had anything changed besides tracer colour.
And the Japanese .50 cal equivalent is a .50 cal IIRC.

Originally Posted by panzer1b

i know the russian guns realistically had low ammo but if there is a source that says they had more, heck even 50 rounds more id gladly appreciate the additional staying potential for the russian planes

Absolutely

Originally Posted by panzer1b

now one interesting thing id like to know is why most russian planes had so few shells? was it a decision based on practice that few pilots would statistically expend so much ammo before either being shot down or returning to base?

I think it was done to save weight. Russian fighters were designed to be exceptionally light because early/mid war no real high power aviation engines were available and to get a similar performance (power to weight) to contemporaries they hd to be lighter. Contrary to other nations Russia never faced masses of tough four engine bombers or had the need to escort those far into Indian country - so the need to build heavier, longer range fighters with heavier armament never arose.

[1984]

Originally Posted by IceFire

BTW: Yak-9UT thanks to research and TD's help has 30 rounds on the NS-37mm. Which aircraft has 20 rounds? I'm having trouble following you. What is in-game and what should it be based on your research?

i can't understand you too, i clearly written what book by nudelman, in addition to other sources which posted here before, confirms what exactly n-37 was tested on yak-9 in 44, and not ns-37, but book not really detailed...

and what book by nudelman confirms with quote from document, in addition to another document which i posted here before, what lagg-3 with ns-37 had 36 shells for ns-37, instead 20 shells (check again, in 4.09, 22 in fact) in game which correctly only for early laggs with sh-37, which no in game...

2 quotes from two documents from two time periods - just tests'42 and combat tests'43 - it's really research and help and, personally i think, enough for correction what very easy to do and really important, because 16 shells it's almost half of ammoload...

plus, in fact, my opinion need to give different belts like "only AP", "only HE", "2 ap - he" and "2 he - 1 ap" or something like this, but at first time, at least, correct ammoload for guns like 36/170 (for UBS, maybe, more, but no info about this)...

and sorry, maybe it's my english and type of thinking, but and i all times can't understand where real problem because it's not chinese or russian even now, plus i try to give pics, only some original quotes, and sources...

well, let's see what will be next...

[1984]

Originally Posted by panzer1b

they are great but out of all the HMGs run out the fastest.

you know, maybe, need to check and rate of fire of all guns...

now one interesting thing id like to know is why most russian planes had so few shells? was it a decision based on practice that few pilots would statistically expend so much ammo before either being shot down or returning to base?

it's complex and interesting question for me too, but, even now personally i can't say why, can only guess... for clear answers need read lot of serious books for designers, know reality and thinking of soviet designers, leaders, military chiefs etc... and understand what USSR was catching up all other leaders in aviation, often copy or not understand real need at some moments... etc...

by the way, about ammunition for il-2s - 300 in total for il-2 with vya-23 it's correct, but in tests, reports and even original manuals for il-2 with shvaks all times 400-420 shells in total... ie apparently 500 it's full capacity of ammoboxes, weight limit or something like this, and typical ammoload around 400, although for il-2 two-seaters with shvaks in tests 500 shells in total... well, i mean, apparently need fix ammoloads for il-2s again...

and little about i-185 - in game i-185-71 have performance of etalon ie 600 kph at sl (forsazh), so, apparently for these plane need to do 560 shells in total, MAYBE, because it's need to understand and it's not important at this moment...

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by 1984

i can't understand you too, i clearly written what book by nudelman, in addition to other sources which posted here before, confirms what exactly n-37 was tested on yak-9 in 44, and not ns-37, but book not really detailed...

and what book by nudelman confirms with quote from document, in addition to another document which i posted here before, what lagg-3 with ns-37 had 36 shells for ns-37, instead 20 shells (check again, in 4.09, 22 in fact) in game which correctly only for early laggs with sh-37, which no in game...

2 quotes from two documents from two time periods - just tests'42 and combat tests'43 - it's really research and help and, personally i think, enough for correction what very easy to do and really important, because 16 shells it's almost half of ammoload...

plus, in fact, my opinion need to give different belts like "only AP", "only HE", "2 ap - he" and "2 he - 1 ap" or something like this, but at first time, at least, correct ammoload for guns like 36/170 (for UBS, maybe, more, but no info about this)...

and sorry, maybe it's my english and type of thinking, but and i all times can't understand where real problem because it's not chinese or russian even now, plus i try to give pics, only some original quotes, and sources...

well, let's see what will be next...

Ok... I think I'm following now. (You're doing much better in English than I can do in Russian )

So... LaGG-3 IT with its 37mm has 20 rounds and it should be 36. I think I've got it. And 170 rounds for the UBS.

Adjustable ammo belts would be amazing but it would also be a huge job. Still I'm sure it's possible with enough effort in research and coding to make it happen.