locked treads on IL-2 Sturmovik Forum

[Bearcat]

Originally Posted by MB_Avro_UK

Same ol' Bearcat
You've been used to being a protected species on the old il2 Forum. But here you're not. Get used to it. Every time you try to throw your digital weight around here, I will be here to respond.
That was a big post you made. Hurting?
Yawn......
Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Actually.. and I don't want this to sound arrogant because I do not mean it that way at all.. but I am not used to being protected.. I am used to being respected in cyberspace and in the real world.... and that is not because I am special or anything at all like that but on most forums that I frequent and during the course of my day, for the most part I am treated with the same courtesy and respect that I try to give others... Here for some reason, it is different.. and that most likely solely because I happen to mod elsewhere and actually not just elsewhere .. but in the pit of flight sim Babylon itself!! LMAO.... If I were not a moderator on IL2 I am pretty certain I would not be getting some of this flak .. but since I am a mod there I must somehow be some kind of shady guy here to subvert this forum as a spy succumbing to the Jedi mindtricks of the Sith Lord Jason Williams.. ROFLMAO!!

What you fail to realizes is that from my perspective.. I have no "digital weight" to throw around ... here or elsewhere.

If there is one lesson I learned very well being a moderator at UBI for as long as I was it is that all this internet "weight" you speak of is an illusion. It is meaningless.. it comes and it goes.. and it has no bearing on who you are .. unless you "toss it around" as you say.. in a way that signifies that you have no respect for others and thereby no self respect.. I serve on the IL2 boards because as I said in another thread.. I was raised to kick in.. I was raised to contribute and serve where you can in the capacity that you can.. and I was raised to pay your way.. and if someone else pays your way .. then that means you have to pay someone else's way.. Paying it forward is a rule I try to live by.. So I am glad to be able to get in on the ground floor engaging in a hobby that I have a great deal of passion for and get a great deal of pleasure from and continue to be in a position to keep my ear to the ground and look forward to what's coming down the pike. I have wanted to get to the next level for a long time.. and so far nothing has manged to scratch that itch.. Hopefully that will change in 12-23 months .. give or take..

.. and as for you "being here to respond" ... LOL.. well OK Avro.. You go right on and respond however you like .. for what it is worth.. I was taken aback by my initial reception here .. but now that I know the rules.. I can play.. but I will not get into a battle of wits with unarmed men. You go right on and protect this place from me and my evil machinations.. As I said in another thread... I have a wife of 24 years going through menopause, I have 7 kids and 8 grandkids.. There is NOTHING that you or anyone else on this forum or anywhere else can say or do to shake me.. ESPECIALLY not here.. now that I know what I am dealing with... soo you go on and keep watch there Officer Dibble.. I'm going to go look for some pikinik baskets..

Oh and thank you for your compliment on my post.. I do aim to please.

[kendo65]

Originally Posted by Feathered_IV

So far the new il-2 forum has been a pleasant place to visit. I hope the more rigorous moderation will continue and that it will help re-educate the community and teach them to conduct themselves better. I don't know why the moderation here has been so very poor for so many years. Whether it was laziness, personal agendas, or whether they just weren't sophisticated enough to make good decisions. Whatever the reason, there is ample evidence to show that they have failed in their duties. The degree of bullying, slander and relentless goading that goes on daily here is truly shameful. The forum seems to bring out the worst in every personality, and not a single one of us is free of blame for that. I'm just as dismayed by the demise of Cliffs' as anybody else, but one upshot of the entire debacle is that we might one day be able to put this place behind us.

The moderators had a really difficult job here. I think their over-riding concern since the launch was to allow for free speech and honestly expressed opinions as much as possible. It was a thankless and near impossible task. Whatever they did they would annoy someone or other. People were banned when they really over-stepped the mark, as Tree's repeated absences showed.

If they had clamped down really hard a year ago there would have been a backlash with (some) people complaining of over-zealousness and blocking of free speech.

Maybe with hindsight (?) that would have been a price worth paying? But I don't think it would have changed the final outcome.

Originally Posted by Feathered_IV

'bullying, slander and relentless goading',

I usually have taken a stance of either accepting people's right to express what they feel or have tried to respond respectfully and carefully with reasoned arguments where I may disagree, BUT recently it has gone beyond where this is an adequate response, with certain people repeatedly attacking forum members and other sims in the most personal, unbalanced, aggressive and unreasonable way, despite having their 'points' repeatedly shown to be unfounded.

When logic doesn't work and when they won't stop trying to shove you around it is finally time to start pushing back in the same manner they use...
or walk away completely...something that may yet be the best idea.

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by Feathered_IV

So far the new il-2 forum has been a pleasant place to visit. I hope the more rigorous moderation will continue and that it will help re-educate the community and teach them to conduct themselves better.

There is this "re-educate" thing again...
I don't know what it is with people and their insistence that others must be re-educated (or made to see the one point of view), as the very worst countries on Earth all had re-education on their books. How, some say, the more we forget the past, the more we are doomed to repeat that past.

There was this country in central Europe which tried it pre and during WWII along with another small country to the south, there was another larger country, to the east, which tried it a few decades earlier whilst going through a revolution. Someone mentioned a S.E.Asian country bunging it on in the 70's... well there was another country to the west of that one which also did it, and opened up entire fields for the end result. To the north of those two is another large country trying it on again today.
A certain 'church' also tried it a couple of centuries ago, and man did they have the tools to do it with! As well, there is another "church" also trying it on today.


The mindset of "making" people see only the one point of view IS WRONG!

Originally Posted by kendo65

When logic doesn't work and when they won't stop trying to shove you around it is finally time to start pushing back in the same manner they use...
or walk away completely...something that may yet be the best idea.

the aim of that tactic is to have "dissenters" walk away

[SlipBall]

Originally Posted by Bearcat

Actually.. and I don't want this to sound arrogant because I do not mean it that way at all.. but I am not used to being protected.. I am used to being respected in cyberspace and in the real world.... and that is not because I am special or anything at all like that but on most forums that I frequent and during the course of my day, for the most part I am treated with the same courtesy and respect that I try to give others... Here for some reason, it is different.. and that most likely solely because I happen to mod elsewhere and actually not just elsewhere .. but in the pit of flight sim Babylon itself!! LMAO.... If I were not a moderator on IL2 I am pretty certain I would not be getting some of this flak .. but since I am a mod there I must somehow be some kind of shady guy here to subvert this forum as a spy succumbing to the Jedi mindtricks of the Sith Lord Jason Williams.. ROFLMAO!!

What you fail to realizes is that from my perspective.. I have no "digital weight" to throw around ... here or elsewhere.

If there is one lesson I learned very well being a moderator at UBI for as long as I was it is that all this internet "weight" you speak of is an illusion. It is meaningless.. it comes and it goes.. and it has no bearing on who you are .. unless you "toss it around" as you say.. in a way that signifies that you have no respect for others and thereby no self respect.. I serve on the IL2 boards because as I said in another thread.. I was raised to kick in.. I was raised to contribute and serve where you can in the capacity that you can.. and I was raised to pay your way.. and if someone else pays your way .. then that means you have to pay someone else's way.. Paying it forward is a rule I try to live by.. So I am glad to be able to get in on the ground floor engaging in a hobby that I have a great deal of passion for and get a great deal of pleasure from and continue to be in a position to keep my ear to the ground and look forward to what's coming down the pike. I have wanted to get to the next level for a long time.. and so far nothing has manged to scratch that itch.. Hopefully that will change in 12-23 months .. give or take..

.. and as for you "being here to respond" ... LOL.. well OK Avro.. You go right on and respond however you like .. for what it is worth.. I was taken aback by my initial reception here .. but now that I know the rules.. I can play.. but I will not get into a battle of wits with unarmed men. You go right on and protect this place from me and my evil machinations.. As I said in another thread... I have a wife of 24 years going through menopause, I have 7 kids and 8 grandkids.. There is NOTHING that you or anyone else on this forum or anywhere else can say or do to shake me.. ESPECIALLY not here.. now that I know what I am dealing with... soo you go on and keep watch there Officer Dibble.. I'm going to go look for some pikinik baskets..

Oh and thank you for your compliment on my post.. I do aim to please.

Do you have any game questions, you seem to be here just to let off some steam

[Wolf_Rider]

not allowed to do that OTR, they get banned for it, lol

[Fjordmonkey]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

There is this "re-educate" thing again...
I don't know what it is with people and their insistence that others must be re-educated (or made to see the one point of view), as the very worst countries on Earth all had re-education on their books. How, some say, the more we forget the past, the more we are doomed to repeat that past.

There was this country in central Europe which tried it pre and during WWII along with another small country to the south, there was another larger country, to the east, which tried it a few decades earlier whilst going through a revolution. Someone mentioned a S.E.Asian country bunging it on in the 70's... well there was another country to the west of that one which also did it, and opened up entire fields for the end result. To the north of those two is another large country trying it on again today.
A certain 'church' also tried it a couple of centuries ago, and man did they have the tools to do it with! As well, there is another "church" also trying it on today.

The mindset of "making" people see only the one point of view IS WRONG!

the aim of that tactic is to have "dissenters" walk away

It's more about getting people to discuss things in a sensible, constructive and adult manner (something I'll wholeheartedly and honestly admit that I fail at from time to time) instead of being small-minded, foul-mouthed and frothing trolls. People are entitled to having their point of view, but they should also be able to discuss that point of view in, again, a constructive manner. Which is something that we've seen fail time and time again here.

Or to put it bluntly: Behave, or face the consequences. Forums on the 'net has never been, is not and will never be a democracy. ALL of them are dictatorships in one form or another, and you accept that when you create your account and when you log into them. Free speech does NOT exist on a forum, although that's something many people utterly forget or don't bother realizing.

In my opinion, the moderators should have been way harsher in removing those that cannot or will not behave and post in a sensible manner. At this point it's not even worth discussing, as most of the posts on this forum has long since outlived their usefulness apart from a historical record of a game that had impossibly high expectations facing it from the community.

[Wolf_Rider]

define: "In a sensible manner" for us, if you would please Fjordmonkey, as you mean it to be

also, if you would, please define: "free speech"


yes, people are very much entitled to have their point of view, as much as they are also entitled to not have that (another) point of view rammed down their throats... they are also entitled not to be called names.

[Fjordmonkey]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

define: "In a sensible manner" for us, if you would please Fjordmonkey, as you mean it to be

A sensible manner = a manner where people that may have vastly different points of view can still manage to discuss the good and bad sides of the coin from both sides in an adult fashion, without letting emotion bleed into it, without namecalling, without being attacked for having a different point of view than the other side. Something that has happened here in the past, and continues to happen since the moderators haven't been hard enough on the ball.

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

also, if you would, please define: "free speech"

I'm not a thesaurus, Wolf, and I'm pretty sure you can google it to get the definition.

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

yes, people are very much entitled to have their point of view, as much as they are also entitled to not have that (another) point of view rammed down their throats... they are also entitled not to be called names.

My point is that unless people can behave, they should be punished. The main problem for any moderator is to be consistent about what acceptable behavior is, and to be consistent in the punishment of transgressors.

[Wolf_Rider]

okay.....

"A sensible manner = a manner where people that may have vastly different points of view can still manage to discuss the good and bad sides of the coin from both sides in an adult fashion, without letting emotion bleed into it, without namecalling, without being attacked for having a different point of view than the other side.

How that be, when you consider some people to be "small-minded, foul-mouthed and frothing trolls"? doesn't that very premise negate your position?


I already have several different interpretations of what "free speech" is, Fjordmonkey. I was asking you for yours... but to save a lot of grief, I'll just cut the chase and offer "calling people names", just inhibits their right to free speech through intimidation.

[raaaid]

personally i rather the anarchy at rof forums(not banning not to lose potential customers)

you get to see peoples real face not like bos forums where people SEEM civilized

the person who i got to admire and love the most was piersjaeger

he was so civilized he could not be from this time

edit:

im the perfect example of a person using freedom of speech,(had the nazis won i would be in a gulag) to which some people insulting me think theyre using theirs