Bugs Thread

[Rork]

Originally Posted by ckdamascus

~45000 leadership. Unless you were near end game, you can't shackle them and that isn't a good way to stop them.

Actually I think it's the best way to stop them (or any other units with pesky ranged magical abilites), because they just become regular units, but that's not important .

Originally Posted by ckdamascus

Clever use of trap and ensuring you don't show your BACK to them is the right way to do it. Or show your back and throw trap. The unit's actual facing is what determines vulnerability to backstab.
You probably don't know the assassin that well. He has 2 skills. Backstab and Murder. Backstab requires the back to be facing. Murder does NOT. If he uses Murder to kill a unit, he reloads Backstab for free and can stab again.

Let me make it as clear as possible (too bad I have no screenshot for this).
I did not move my units, just kept them on the starting hexes, so no back was facing at any moment. The actual backstab came from the right front hex of the unmoved unit. Also, the battle went on like this: 1st turn, my army waited, spells and rage rained down, assassins moved; 2nd turn, my army waited, used some more spells and rage, assassins used backstab on the center unmoved unit.
At no point did the assassins used murder, as they were in no contact with any of my units and certainly no kill was involved. Trust me, I do know the assassins quite well .

Originally Posted by ckdamascus

Double fights are good for XP but it was fixed in 6249.

Double fights like this are shit (obviously a bug not present in the other games), something like a cheat.

Originally Posted by ckdamascus

You aren't even on the latest patch. Latest patch is build 6249, but it has a lot of new problems it introduces. Are you not on steam?

Whatever fixes I can do via file editing or console are more useful than any patch, at least for now, so I'm only playing offline. I would've stopped playing had not I advanced so much in the game, but since patching renders previous saves useless, I decided to try to finish like this. Not a Steam fan, I only use Steam when there's no way around it.

Finally moved past Loki, but I'm not sure if I did what you said, since Enter apparently didn't work (there was a new title involved and then the achievement). I ended up moving mouse pointer on the OK button and pressing Enter repeatedly (yes, I know, not exactly a dignified sight). What I did change in the fight was to move my units on the up and down lateral rows (where Loki's firebreath doesn't reach) and kept them there, except the damage-dealing Dragons, for the duration of the fight. That meant the hexes affected by the the fire didn't activate - maybe it also helped. Anyway, five Death Stars later it was solved with minimal losses. Still, game-breaking bug there, so good luck circumventing it.

Another, well, not bug, but definitely a mistake: Dragon Slayer's Sword doesn't mention in its description that it's part of the Dragon Hunter Set.

[ckdamascus]

Originally Posted by Rork

Actually I think it's the best way to stop them (or any other units with pesky ranged magical abilites), because they just become regular units, but that's not important .

For 35 mana that 'might' or might not work if the stack is weak enough? Considering you can double cast... so many cheaper/stronger methods.

If you trap them, they get stuck in your side of the field, all alone. You can take them out really fast in the first round then.

If they are too strong to finish in one round, you can use phantom or a summoner unit as a decoy so they burn their backstabs on it. You still need to worry about murder but that isn't a big deal.

Trap and Phantom (level 2) can be cast for <= 20 mana so you can still double cast. Most mages will have trap maxed out by then, so you can have your interdictor (usually black dragon or archdemon) stand in front of the pre-dropped traps to bait the assassins to backstab over and fail. (assuming that is out of range of their melee/range)

AND you still get free spells to cast for less mana.

Shackles you can precast one spell then it might work on some or other units as you've seen. Not to mention it costs a LOT of crystals to get.

Originally Posted by Rork

Let me make it as clear as possible (too bad I have no screenshot for this).
I did not move my units, just kept them on the starting hexes, so no back was facing at any moment. The actual backstab came from the right front hex of the unmoved unit. Also, the battle went on like this: 1st turn, my army waited, spells and rage rained down, assassins moved; 2nd turn, my army waited, used some more spells and rage, assassins used backstab on the center unmoved unit.
At no point did the assassins used murder, as they were in no contact with any of my units and certainly no kill was involved. Trust me, I do know the assassins quite well .

Double fights like this are shit (obviously a bug not present in the other games), something like a cheat.

Ok that sounds like a bug then. There really is no point in discussing old bugs though. You are using an old version of the game which has already been patched. Also, incorrect about not existing before. This bug existed in Armored Princess (double fight), but far more rare.

Originally Posted by Rork

Whatever fixes I can do via file editing or console are more useful than any patch, at least for now, so I'm only playing offline. I would've stopped playing had not I advanced so much in the game, but since patching renders previous saves useless, I decided to try to finish like this. Not a Steam fan, I only use Steam when there's no way around it.

Incorrect. Patch does not render previous saves useless. Of course, you should back up the game just in case (I have).

What happens is if the new patch fixes an old Quest bug, continuing your existing game will not HAVE that quest bug fixed despite being in the new patch because your save was generated in the old one. I know why but ugh it's annoying (because they patch it by using quest item generation and new games generate items).

I can complete the game with my "initial saved game build 6246" with current build 6249. But again, you will find some new bugs which may or may not alarm you, but it will fix other bugs.

Originally Posted by Rork

Finally moved past Loki, but I'm not sure if I did what you said, since Enter apparently didn't work (there was a new title involved and then the achievement). I ended up moving mouse pointer on the OK button and pressing Enter repeatedly (yes, I know, not exactly a dignified sight). What I did change in the fight was to move my units on the up and down lateral rows (where Loki's firebreath doesn't reach) and kept them there, except the damage-dealing Dragons, for the duration of the fight. That meant the hexes affected by the the fire didn't activate - maybe it also helped. Anyway, five Death Stars later it was solved with minimal losses. Still, game-breaking bug there, so good luck circumventing it.

Another, well, not bug, but definitely a mistake: Dragon Slayer's Sword doesn't mention in its description that it's part of the Dragon Hunter Set.

Loki's fire breath is terribly bugged in 6246. Works fine in 6249 as far as I can tell both when I use the Breath Weapon (when I learn it after beating him) and during boss fights.

However, it seems they kept the old "crash after" battle one.

Yeah, Dragon slayer sword set is fixed in 6249 as well.

[Rork]

Originally Posted by ckdamascus

For 35 mana that 'might' or might not work if the stack is weak enough? Considering you can double cast... so many cheaper/stronger methods.

Whatever works - as I've already said, it's not important. And I'd rather avoid stirring the wasps' nest about what level of difficulty we're playing on or what spells/gear builds we use. O darn, too late .

Originally Posted by ckdamascus

If they are too strong to finish in one round...

Um... do you get many battles where you can finish in one round or is that a figure of speech? I don't know whether the game scales the enemies according to the character's level, but even labels such as Strong or Very Strong usually means at least three turns - at least to me, it does.

Originally Posted by ckdamascus

Not to mention it costs a LOT of crystals to get.

It's only at level 1, haven't upgraded it (and probably won't), since I don't use it.

Originally Posted by ckdamascus

Ok that sounds like a bug then. There really is no point in discussing old bugs though. ... Also, incorrect about not existing before. This bug existed in Armored Princess (double fight), but far more rare.

I've played twice AP, not including Crossworlds, and never once ran into such a bug. It already occured several times in KBWotN. So it may be an old bug, but they kept it while adding others - not worth mentioning it then?

Originally Posted by ckdamascus

Incorrect. Patch does not render previous saves useless. Of course, you should back up the game just in case (I have).
What happens is if the new patch fixes an old Quest bug, continuing your existing game will not HAVE that quest bug fixed despite being in the new patch because your save was generated in the old one.

And why is that incorrect? If the patch doesn't apply to my current save, than that save is pretty much useless when it comes to the fixed bugs.
If you wanna talk semantics, then I suppose we could debate whether "useless" might or might not be too strong a word here: the save can still be used after the patch, xcept the patch won't do anything for your game, might as well start from scratch again. That's pretty much useless in my book .

[ckdamascus]

Originally Posted by Rork

Um... do you get many battles where you can finish in one round or is that a figure of speech? I don't know whether the game scales the enemies according to the character's level, but even labels such as Strong or Very Strong usually means at least three turns - at least to me, it does.

No, you want to kill or cripple the assassin STACK in round 1 if you are going to bait them into a trap early on.

step 1), walk 'bait' unit up one step.
step 2) cast trap behind bait.
step 3) when assassin goes, they will backstab, and FAIL/get INTERRUPTED before doing ANY damage to your bait, but they will be STUCK behind your bait.
step 4) beat the living daylights out of the assasin stack

But you don't want to do this if you can't cripple the 300 assassin stack in the first round because then you might take losses the next round because you just put a big stack of assassins next to your army

Originally Posted by Rork

I've played twice AP, not including Crossworlds, and never once ran into such a bug. It already occured several times in KBWotN. So it may be an old bug, but they kept it while adding others - not worth mentioning it then?

You made the claim "Double fights like this are shit (obviously a bug not present in the other games), something like a cheat.", I was simply saying it isn't true. (e.g. not present in other games). Nevermind that it was fixed in build 6249 as far as I can tell (at the last island, didn't see a single double fight).

Originally Posted by Rork

And why is that incorrect? If the patch doesn't apply to my current save, than that save is pretty much useless when it comes to the fixed bugs.
If you wanna talk semantics, then I suppose we could debate whether "useless" might or might not be too strong a word here: the save can still be used after the patch, xcept the patch won't do anything for your game, might as well start from scratch again. That's pretty much useless in my book .

Because the patch does apply to your current saved game. Just some parts of the patch does not. e.g. If you had the patch, Loki fire does not screw up at all. You can continue your existing game. So it DOES apply to your saved game just some of the Quest patches do not.

Unfortunately it means you will break pygmy, favorite of the gods, avenging angel, demon rage balls, but you will fix loki crashes, assassin weirdness, ice dragon crashes, double fights, a few other things which I don't remember to list right now, etc all of this WITHOUT RESTARTING the game.

I'm not sure if you feel just because you can't fix a few optional quests you consider it 'useless' but I would hardly say it "wont' do anything for your game" considering you are running into bugs that appear to have been fixed in said patch.

[Rork]

Originally Posted by ckdamascus

No, you want to kill or cripple the assassin STACK in round 1 if you are going to bait them into a trap early on.

Different approaches, different players, whatever works best for each. Not moving my units = not exposing them = the assassin's skills don't work = gives time to focus on other more immediate threats + added bonus of not casting trap but a more efficient spell. Of course, it all depends on the opposing army's composition.
But this is a thread about bugs, not about strategy tips'n'tricks.

Originally Posted by ckdamascus

You made the claim "Double fights like this are shit (obviously a bug not present in the other games), something like a cheat.", I was simply saying it isn't true. (e.g. not present in other games).

Ah, I stand corrected. I made the wrong assumption that since I haven't encountered it, that particular bug wasn't present in the other games - my bad.

Originally Posted by ckdamascus

I'm not sure if you feel just because you can't fix a few optional quests you consider it 'useless' but I would hardly say it "wont' do anything for your game" considering you are running into bugs that appear to have been fixed in said patch.

A few bugs fixed, a lot more introduced, some fixes will not show up in your current game, meaning a restart - not normal. I expect a patch to:
1. work as a whole, not "just some parts";
2. let me get on with the game, not force me to restart (even if it's only for minor details, which a quest is not imho).
O well, maybe it's just me and I'm growing too disillusioned with this new & botched KB. Still damn adddictive though, even despite its multitude of problems .

[Nirual]

Originally Posted by Rork

A few bugs fixed, a lot more introduced, some fixes will not show up in your current game, meaning a restart - not normal. I expect a patch to:
1. work as a whole, not "just some parts";
2. let me get on with the game, not force me to restart (even if it's only for minor details, which a quest is not imho).

Unfortunately the way some of the game's coding works having to start a fresh game for some changes to apply is quite understandable. And a patch failing to fix a problem isnt entirely unheard of either.
that said, this game was obviously rushed out without any serious testing and so were the patches. Even the patchnotes seem rushed. I would've liked to know what they found to be wrong with all those spells they "corrected".

[ckdamascus]

Originally Posted by Nirual

Unfortunately the way some of the game's coding works having to start a fresh game for some changes to apply is quite understandable. And a patch failing to fix a problem isnt entirely unheard of either.
that said, this game was obviously rushed out without any serious testing and so were the patches. Even the patchnotes seem rushed. I would've liked to know what they found to be wrong with all those spells they "corrected".

Concur.

Seems like Plague has been reworked significantly in text and such.

Oil Mist as well (but unclear how, but the code is different and that is probably the cause of the slowdown due to logic calculations... but calculating for what?!?)

Pygmy was buffed (ftww's fix works quite well for it).

Avenging angel... they clearly had some intention to buff it (not sure how or why). And we saw the result of that partial commitment to whatever buff.

I see WHY you have to restart the game. Annoying though. Very annoying.

That said, I did a speedy debug/test run with pure build 6249 start to build 6249 finish.


A New Star is Born -- you can break this quest if you kill the orc in the citadel before gettign the mission. The game does try to alleviate it, but the dialog when you talk to Knuld never shows up and you can never get the dress.

Conversely, if you do NOT prematurely kill the orc, it works fine!

Spellbook bug with Eric STILL occurs, but I wonder if it is because I "learned" a new spell during the fight or if it is because I used minimum allies. Unclear for now.

I did a super speedy bullcrap run, bypassing everything. But, I have save points in a lot of key areas, so if anyone wants to know if a mission is bugged in build 6249 with a FRESH game, let me know and I will try to test for you.

[LegendMaker]

Originally Posted by Rork

Actually I think it's the best way to stop them (or any other units with pesky ranged magical abilites), because they just become regular units, but that's not important

Well, that's certainly moving outside of technical advice and well into strategical advice, but it still saddens me to see you missing the point that bad. Allow me to try and clarify, okay?

What ckdamascus was pointing at is the fact that if you one day decide to switch to a difficulty level a little more challenging than "Normal", as you currently play, you should hopefully come to realize that Magic Shackles only ever applies when you are way more powerful than the enemy anyways, due to the leadership cap he mentioned. He wasn't telling you "not turning your back on your enemy is a better defense than tying your enemy's hands", as you apparently understood; he was more telling you "if you're in a position where an enemy will let you tie his hands easily, then this enemy is not much of a threat to begin with". Seriously, man, think about that. WotN's "Impossible" mode is already ridiculously easy to beat, I can't even fathom how overpowered you must be in "Normal" mode.

If you really have a thing for "Magic Shackles", try recruiting Witch Hunters if you get the chance. Their shackles are not limited by leadership. You should have fun.

[Rork]

Originally Posted by LegendMaker

Well, that's certainly moving outside of technical advice and well into strategical advice, but it still saddens me to see you missing the point that bad. Allow me to try and clarify, okay?

What ckdamascus was pointing at is the fact that if you one day decide to switch to a difficulty level a little more challenging than "Normal", as you currently play, you should hopefully come to realize that Magic Shackles only ever applies when you are way more powerful than the enemy anyways, due to the leadership cap he mentioned. He wasn't telling you "not turning your back on your enemy is a better defense than tying your enemy's hands", as you apparently understood; he was more telling you "if you're in a position where an enemy will let you tie his hands easily, then this enemy is not much of a threat to begin with". Seriously, man, think about that. WotN's "Impossible" mode is already ridiculously easy to beat, I can't even fathom how overpowered you must be in "Normal" mode.

If you really have a thing for "Magic Shackles", try recruiting Witch Hunters if you get the chance. Their shackles are not limited by leadership. You should have fun.

Well, I was wondering when someone who thinks he proves something by playing on impossible would step in.
For your information, I don't "have a thing for magic shackles", it was just a perfect opportunity to see if it worked as advertised - I even upgraded them in fight for this, as they're currently level 1. I would suggest trying to re-read carefully this time (word by word, in case you're missing my point) the messages, but before that do try to put some points into your reading skills.
In short, to be polite, please save your precious "stategical advice" for someone who cares and do step in only when your valiant efforts on impossible will actually amount to something else besides making you feel high and mighty.

[LegendMaker]

Originally Posted by Rork

Well, [butthurt message aiming for a snap rebuttal]

Cool story, bro. No more strategy advice or plain English for you, duly noted. Have fun.