omg the meserchmitch i so easy to shoot with the spit i love it

[*Buzzsaw*]

Originally Posted by NaBkin

So what do you personally think of the CLoD plane's perfomance? Which planes do you fly and do you think they are "historical correct" (if one can say so about a PC Sim).

I think it's common sense, that the 109 turns worse than most of the Red planes. It's well modeled in Clod I think.

But the problem I have with the game is that if I have a Spit on my 6 I have no chances to deal with her whatsoever. You can't outturn it, neither can you outclimb it fast enough (only if you are out of shooting range) nor dive away. It just sticks at your 6, only chance is that you are the better pilot and manage to make it loose you in wild maneuvres.

Every time i sit in a Spit or even in a Hurri I have a much better Kill ratio than in my 109. And that's the problem I have with Clod at the moment:
If you have two equally skilled pilots, the 109 almost every time looses. I have a good ratio if I fly with my squad mates, because then it's all about communication and discipline. But if I fly alone I feel like I sit in a defenisve-only plane. It's so much easier to fly the spit. And I'm just no sure if this was the case back then in 1940. And this is only early war, let alone 1944...

I don't consider myself an expert, but I can see where the advantages and disadvantages lie.

The question is, what altitude do you fight at?

If you are fighting on the deck for any length of time, at some time you are inevitably going to find yourself in the situation you describe, ie. with a Spitfire on your six. If its a Hurricane on your six, then you really have been asleep at the wheel.

Most successful 109 pilots caught on the deck use scissors or a series of bunts into dives and then zooms, then repeat, or a combination of both to get a Spit off their tail, and they make sure they keep their speed up. Do you have those skills?

On the other hand, I watch a lot of 109 pilots come over with the bombers, sit on top of them and prey on the Spits and Hurricanes below. At those altitudes, there is no competition, the 109's rule. On the remote chance a Hurricane or Spit IIA has taken 20 minutes to climb up to 20,000 ft and attacks from higher alt, the 109 maneuvers a bit, and the Spit/Hurri loses its e, then the 109 is in the drivers seat. In emergencies, you just dive away at max speed, Hurricanes or Spits following will lose parts at those speeds.

As far as what planes I fly in CoD, usually Red side, although I have flown the 109 quite a number of times, all models, E1/E3/E4, as well as the G50 and 110. I found the 109 very easy to fly compared to the British planes, the opposite of historical, no overheating at all unless you actually don't open the rad, but basically it's open to 3/4 and then forget, there are none of the real life takeoff or landing issues the plane had, and even when running manual pitch, seems impossible to overrev the engine unless you are a complete numbnuts. It doesn't sustain turn with the British planes in my experience, but it does accelerate like a rocket in a dive, and turns well enough to allow plenty of shots out of a boom and zoom. Also rolls extremely well, better than the Spit or Hurri. The boost can be left at 1.35 ata forever, not accurate, and 1.45 can be used as often as you like and for longer than than the 1 minute allowed historically. And the trim never seems to be an issue, even though the historical 109 needed rudder adjustments at most speeds, the plane may show the ball off center, but it doesn't seem to cause it to actually yaw much.

What planes are modelled accurately in CoD? None of them. The G50 is probably the closest. The 109 is definitely wrong in any number of ways, some of which I mention above, also it is too slow on the deck, climbs worse than it should over approx. 3000 meters, and should have a ceiling 3000 meters higher than the game plane. But its climb is not as far off as the British planes, which are also slow.

[NaBkin]

Originally Posted by *Buzzsaw*

I don't consider myself an expert, but I can see where the advantages and disadvantages lie.

The question is, what altitude do you fight at?

If you are fighting on the deck for any length of time, at some time you are inevitably going to find yourself in the situation you describe, ie. with a Spitfire on your six. If its a Hurricane on your six, then you really have been asleep at the wheel.

Most successful 109 pilots caught on the deck use scissors or a series of bunts into dives and then zooms, then repeat, or a combination of both to get a Spit off their tail, and they make sure they keep their speed up. Do you have those skills?

I hope so, I fly il2 ever since the demo in 2001, mostly in online squads, so in theory I know how to fly the 109

Originally Posted by *Buzzsaw*

On the other hand, I watch a lot of 109 pilots come over with the bombers, sit on top of them and prey on the Spits and Hurricanes below. At those altitudes, there is no competition, the 109's rule. On the remote chance a Hurricane or Spit IIA has taken 20 minutes to climb up to 20,000 ft and attacks from higher alt, the 109 maneuvers a bit, and the Spit/Hurri loses its e, then the 109 is in the drivers seat. In emergencies, you just dive away at max speed, Hurricanes or Spits following will lose parts at those speeds.

As far as what planes I fly in CoD, usually Red side, although I have flown the 109 quite a number of times, all models, E1/E3/E4, as well as the G50 and 110. I found the 109 very easy to fly compared to the British planes, the opposite of historical, no overheating at all unless you actually don't open the rad, but basically it's open to 3/4 and then forget, there are none of the real life takeoff or landing issues the plane had, and even when running manual pitch, seems impossible to overrev the engine unless you are a complete numbnuts. It doesn't sustain turn with the British planes in my experience, but it does accelerate like a rocket in a dive, and turns well enough to allow plenty of shots out of a boom and zoom. Also rolls extremely well, better than the Spit or Hurri. The boost can be left at 1.35 ata forever, not accurate, and 1.45 can be used as often as you like and for longer than than the 1 minute allowed historically. And the trim never seems to be an issue, even though the historical 109 needed rudder adjustments at most speeds, the plane may show the ball off center, but it doesn't seem to cause it to actually yaw much.

What planes are modelled accurately in CoD? None of them. The G50 is probably the closest. The 109 is definitely wrong in any number of ways, some of which I mention above, also it is too slow on the deck, climbs worse than it should over approx. 3000 meters, and should have a ceiling 3000 meters higher than the game plane. But its climb is not as far off as the British planes, which are also slow.

I agree with most of your points. And since I want historical correct FM, I neither like the 1.45 ata issue which gives blues an advantage, nor do I like the too low ceiling of course.
I'm not quite with you with the trim, because I have to adjust it quite often, but this is something minor I suppose.

Maybe the problem we have is also a bit that as a 109 pilot, you have to stay very disciplined and if you don't you'll loose. As oppose to a Spit Pilot who has to "just" outturn and wait for his opponent to make a mistake and take the advantage over it.

So what you say is that as a german pilot, you only are able to actually win/shoot down the enemy if you are in better position. If you are at same alt and you've been spotted which means "equal starting position" you'll loose. We just don't know if this is what the reality was back then.
Maybe it's true and it's an issue considering the impossibility to "simulate" other important issues like better trained pilots, better tactics, coms, leadership and stuff. Which would mean a todays "pc ww2 simulation limitations" do favour the red flying style. Or just the FM of CLoD's a mess. I guess we will never know, but I'm almost sure that it is a combination of the two.
Sorry about my strange english but I have a hard time thinking in english at the moment...

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by *Buzzsaw*

Most successful 109 pilots caught on the deck use scissors or a series of bunts into dives and then zooms, then repeat, or a combination of both to get a Spit off their tail, and they make sure they keep their speed up. Do you have those skills?

Its difficult to have those skills. Yes, scissors would be effective, but the 109E has some sort of stall bug that resembles that of the old Il-2's horrendous G-6 FM at its worst state. The CLOD 109E seem to stall randomly and with no warning, making a manoeuvre like scissors very hard to execute.

On the other hand, I watch a lot of 109 pilots come over with the bombers, sit on top of them and prey on the Spits and Hurricanes below. At those altitudes, there is no competition, the 109's rule. On the remote chance a Hurricane or Spit IIA has taken 20 minutes to climb up to 20,000 ft and attacks from higher alt, the 109 maneuvers a bit, and the Spit/Hurri loses its e, then the 109 is in the drivers seat.

In short the fight usually develop along the current disadvantages of the FM. The 109s stall is nerfed, so nobody in good sense goes down to engage in manouvering combat, as we all know that the Spit is practically impossible to stall and has no stability issues at all (as opposed to the real thing). OTOH the Reds can't come up to altitude because of their even more flawed altitude FM. So it's isn't that much of a surprise that 109 stay high where they are untouchable and Spits/Hurris wait down below where they are untouchable.

In emergencies, you just dive away at max speed, Hurricanes or Spits following will lose parts at those speeds.

Except that in my experience its next to impossible to shake of even the Hurricane in level flight by extending in the 109 that is supposedly much faster in both dive and level flight - either the Hurricane is too fast, or the 109E is too slow, or both.

As far as what planes I fly in CoD, usually Red side, although I have flown the 109 quite a number of times, all models, E1/E3/E4, as well as the G50 and 110. I found the 109 very easy to fly compared to the British planes, the opposite of historical,

Nope. The stall characteristics of the 109E are horrendous, it stalls and enters a flat spin all the time as opposed to the real thing, which was next to impossible to be put into a flat spin. Even the British emphasized the mild stall characteristics of the 109E which enabled it to be taken easier and closer to the edge of its performance envelope than British fighters. The Spitfire

no overheating at all unless you actually don't open the rad, but basically it's open to 3/4 and then forget,

Perhaps that's better than the current overheat model than British planes, but let's not forget that the real 109 did not overheat even at 1/4 radiator open during level flight. Our one does, however, and it forces Blue pilots to open the radiators more and as a result fly with reduced airspeed, ie. effectively taking away the advantage in performance the 109 should have.

there are none of the real life takeoff or landing issues the plane had,

I agree that loops are still not modelled, which is a shame. The 109 should be more prone to this, but than again, neither the Hurricane or the Spit does groundloop.. as for landing its average, the Hurricane for example is childishly easy to land because it flies at much slower speeds.

and even when running manual pitch, seems impossible to overrev the engine unless you are a complete numbnuts.

No the engine does over- and underrevs all the time as speed and altitude changes, and on the manual prop pitch models you have to keep an eye on it all the time. Performance suffers accordingly. OTOH even in real life there was not much of a consequence of slight under or overevving, since the DB 601A could tolerate even 3000 rpm (instead of the normal 2400) for 30 secs.

It doesn't sustain turn with the British planes in my experience, but it does accelerate like a rocket in a dive,

As it should. It is the highest wing loading plane with the highest power to weight ratio and lowest drag, remember?

and turns well enough to allow plenty of shots out of a boom and zoom.

As it should.

Also rolls extremely well, better than the Spit or Hurri.

Again, as it should.

The boost can be left at 1.35 ata forever, not accurate, and 1.45 can be used as often as you like and for longer than than the 1 minute allowed historically.

There was nothing preventing the use of 1.35ata, apart from oil/coolant temperatures (which the cooling system could easily handle) , fuel consumption (modelled) and increased wear of the engine (which is not a concern for any Blue/Red player).

There was no limit on how often the 1-minute rating could be used and you are wrong that it's possible to use for longer than 1-min since it disengages automatically after 60 secs.

In the end neither should be that much of a concern since the 109 cannot reach it's 1.35/1.45ata performance at all and it's slower by 40 km/h than it should be at those ratings.

And the trim never seems to be an issue, even though the historical 109 needed rudder adjustments at most speeds, the plane may show the ball off center, but it doesn't seem to cause it to actually yaw much.

The 109 does fly out of trim all the time and with a yaw as the ball clearly shows. It needs rudder adjustments for perfect flying. It's mildly annoying but not much of a practical concern, neither it was in real life - and neither it is for Red planes.


Currently the 109s have the following issues:

- auto prop pitch bug on the E-4
- cannot reach historical level speeds and is slower by ca. 40 km/h
- altitude FM bug (common to all planes)
- lack of armor
- stall modelling, with unpredictable and violent stalls, flat spins
- it overheat model is much worse than the real thing, which could sustain allowable temperatures at 1/4 radiator open (or 3/4 closed) in level flight
- the weight of E-1, E-3, E-4 is slightly off (though I do not think this is that much of an issue, since turn times are hard coded and it should only effect behaviour)
- ground handling model is simplistic (common to all planes)
- best climbing speed is off, it's 270 km/h instead of 250 kph, which may seem unimportant, but it has an effect on the turn/climb envelope, curve and related tactics, low speed flight etc.
- tailwheel lock is present in 3d cocpit model (it was present on E-7 onwards)
- speaking of which there's no E-7
- no E-4/N either :p
- manual prop pitch lacks feathering option

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

Its difficult to have those skills. Yes, scissors would be effective, but the 109E has some sort of stall bug that resembles that of the old Il-2's horrendous G-6 FM at its worst state. The CLOD 109E seem to stall randomly and with no warning, making a manoeuvre like scissors very hard to execute.

It is supposed to be difficult. Emil is not an easy plane to fly and / or master Regarding the stalls you mention, I often use scissors as a maneuveur and I never stall the plane - that includes rolling scissors, vertical, horizontal combined with aggressive hammerheads - the problem is not in the aircraft. I see many other pilots being in perfect command of the 109...

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

In short the fight usually develop along the current disadvantages of the FM. The 109s stall is nerfed, so nobody in good sense goes down to engage in manouvering combat, as we all know that the Spit is practically impossible to stall and has no stability issues at all (as opposed to the real thing). OTOH the Reds can't come up to altitude because of their even more flawed altitude FM. So it's isn't that much of a surprise that 109 stay high where they are untouchable and Spits/Hurris wait down below where they are untouchable.

Interesting, this is in exact opposite of what many RAF pilots are doing - you have much better chances higher up as the performance gap closes the higher you go. 109 up high are not untouchable, they're actually more vulnerable.

I am not sure if you ever flew the Spitfire in the current patch, but I can tell you it is very much possible to stall her if you're not careful. Same for the 109. The most difficult in my experience is the Hurricane, she likes to drop her wing if you're not precise with the rudder.

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

Except that in my experience its next to impossible to shake of even the Hurricane in level flight by extending in the 109 that is supposedly much faster in both dive and level flight - either the Hurricane is too fast, or the 109E is too slow, or both.

The difference is perhaps not as big as it used to be, Spitfire and even the Hurricane can be dangerous of course when the pilot keeps the speed up and you don't. But the 109 is faster than anything in the game if flown right. I see many 109 pilots have no problem to shake me even if I fly my Spitfire on the edge. Even worse in the Hurricane.

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

Nope. The stall characteristics of the 109E are horrendous, it stalls and enters a flat spin all the time as opposed to the real thing, which was next to impossible to be put into a flat spin. Even the British emphasized the mild stall characteristics of the 109E which enabled it to be taken easier and closer to the edge of its performance envelope than British fighters.

Not entirely true, you had to be better pilot in order to get the 109 on the edge, Spitfire was generally easier to fly. I repeat I believe this stall experience of yours is not a 109 problem.

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

Currently the 109s have the following issues:

Some of the issues (top speed, top ceiling, ground handling) is equally present in all planes in the game.

I agree with most and I would add wings too fragile and stock rudder trim being wrong (maybe making the plane less stable, it was OK in on of the previous patches then changed back). Main issue is the engine modeling - Aa and A-1 mixup with FTH and power ratings - this actuly favours the Emil in the game. I don't think the real life pilots were flying at 1,45 ata during the whole flight with no consequences like we do