Are Lvl 5 Units viable anymore?

[Karlos]

Originally Posted by ckdamascus

I just really remember running with a black dragon with my armies and never getting with with geyser. Maybe it was all a dream...

No I remember it too. All my units flying in the air, only the blackies sitting there. Dunno if it was in TL, AP or CW though.

[bugmenot]

In arena.lua script for geyser they check if there are some nonmagic immune creature for it to cast, so One black dragon won't be hit, but if there is an army, then he either got hit, or there is some other script (or should be).

Hence, I say it is bug.

[Nevar]

As someone who was playing CW two weeks ago, I can tell you Geyser did not affect magic immune units. This whole black dragons flying into the air thing is new.

[Colbert30]

Originally Posted by Zechnophobe

Well, I've done no loss impossible with them, and recall it being one of the fastest (real time wise) ways of doing it. This was in KBAP where my army was RGBB dragons, and Archdemons. Except for the final two fights (Ktahu and Bhaal) where I used just Bone dragons + eviln.

What I also like about Black Dragons is their initiative. As a mage, they were always going first, so that let me control the battlefield with CCs or buffs as I pleased, even before the battle begun.

[Colbert30]

Originally Posted by Nevar

Not sure if sarcasm or not. Blacks have never been immune to armageddon.

@Zechnophobe: I was only counting non-summons, although it is weird that, as someone who uses lots of summons, I'd forgotten those had magic immunity, too. Still.

Wasn't armageddon astral damage? I think I remember reading that somewhere.

[Nevar]

Originally Posted by Colbert30

Wasn't armageddon astral damage? I think I remember reading that somewhere.

Kind of? I had 50% Astral Resistance in CW and it still hurt when I cast it.

[Colbert30]

Originally Posted by Nevar

Kind of? I had 50% Astral Resistance in CW and it still hurt when I cast it.

Yeah. I should have quoted Namad. Sorry. I just meant that, AFAIK, astral damage is not considered magic damage, so it's ok that black dragons were not immune to armageddon.

[Nevar]

True. That's why the Reaper's skills from KBTL worked on Blacks, too.

... Does Sacrifice work on Black Dragons? O_O (as in sacrificing the dragon, not it being the target of the boost)

[ckdamascus]

Sacrifice shouldn't work on black dragons. Besides this "AoE" Geyser bug, the only things that did as far as I remember

a) Plague. level 1 plague was so efficient, I had to get it even as a warrior.
b) Rune Mage Crossworlds resurrection
c) Gizmo (Crossworlds later patch? Or was it red sands?) could heal black dragons
d) Dancing Axes of Shamans could heal black dragons

It is possible Geyser is allowed to hit black dragons now because a NEW rule in this game is

Giant's Earthquake can hit flying creatures now, but with reduced effect (only 30% effective I think). I personally don't like this, but eh.

By the way, Black Dragons initiative isn't THAT good (init 6). But they make level 1-4 enemies have -1 initiative (Power of the Dragon unit passive), so that is what makes them really good as "Interdictors" in battle, even if they aren't THAT great in straight combat against real enemies.

It also meant that the mortal enemy of the Black Dragon was the Archdemon (init EIGHT), who was faster AND was immune to the negative initiative.

But as a Warrior, I would have Onslaught and Quick Draw, one cast of helplessness on Archdemon (they can only debuff at the start of their turn, like Shield of Rage right now) and 1 or 2 shots of my 100% critical chance hunters, and the stack would be nearly dead. Who said damage doesn't matter?

[Zechnophobe]

Originally Posted by ckdamascus

Sacrifice shouldn't work on black dragons. Besides this "AoE" Geyser bug, the only things that did as far as I remember

a) Plague. level 1 plague was so efficient, I had to get it even as a warrior.
b) Rune Mage Crossworlds resurrection
c) Gizmo (Crossworlds later patch? Or was it red sands?) could heal black dragons
d) Dancing Axes of Shamans could heal black dragons

Plague was so incredible vs Black Dragons. Penalties to health, defense, and morale (for even larger penalties!) Dropped them down in strength like nothing else.

It is possible Geyser is allowed to hit black dragons now because a NEW rule in this game is

Giant's Earthquake can hit flying creatures now, but with reduced effect (only 30% effective I think). I personally don't like this, but eh.

I feel anything that makes Giants better is worthwhile. They make Ancient Ents look like goddamn champions.

By the way, Black Dragons initiative isn't THAT good (init 6). But they make level 1-4 enemies have -1 initiative (Power of the Dragon unit passive), so that is what makes them really good as "Interdictors" in battle, even if they aren't THAT great in straight combat against real enemies.

I've currently got the Mask of Rage upgraded, and black dragons. Gives almost the entire enemy -2 init, which is awesome. You even go before Furious Goblins. (Though rascally archdemons still go first).

It also meant that the mortal enemy of the Black Dragon was the Archdemon (init EIGHT), who was faster AND was immune to the negative initiative.

But as a Warrior, I would have Onslaught and Quick Draw, one cast of helplessness on Archdemon (they can only debuff at the start of their turn, like Shield of Rage right now) and 1 or 2 shots of my 100% critical chance hunters, and the stack would be nearly dead. Who said damage doesn't matter?

As a mage, my personal favorite thing to do vs Archdemons was Pain Mirror + Timeback. Y'know those impossibly large stacks of archdemons near the end of the game, like 44 or so? They'd go over and Half a stack of 20 red dragons... and then you'd Pain mirror them three times and timeback your dragons. Booyah. Maged.