Pilot kill after pilot kill. How do they do it??

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by *Buzzsaw*

Go back and read my posts.

I did. You seem to be confusing "my source doesn't mention the tungsten ammo" or "the tungsten ammo was less common than the standard ammo" with "the tungsten ammo was in short supply"

If you can't quote it, then I'll accept that you agree.

[*Buzzsaw*]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

German penetration table for the commonplace 7,92mm SmK v round, at different ranges and angles, striking the armor plate directly (cont. lines) or indirectly (hitting a 3mm thick dural plate at 20 degrees 1,5 meters before the the armor plate).

For reference, the armor thickness on the Spitfire noted. I believe the Hurricane had the same thicknesses.

Apparanatly a lot was dependent on wheter the bullet hit anything before it struck armor plate. If not, it could go through it rather easily. I am not sure if the Spit had 3 mm thick dural plating on the fuselage (it seems unlikely to me, given that the 'deflector plate' cowling over the tank was only 3.5mm thick and it was considered to be a reinforced part to deflect bullets) but 20 degrees angle of impact and 1.5 meters of spacing does seem practical.

Salute

First of all, we're talking about the SmK (H) round, not the standard version. I have no issue with the standard AP round being included, it was part of the historical 109 7.92mm loadout, the SmK (H) was not, as mentioned previously the Dewilde was standard loadout, so was the M-Geschoss.

2nd, in relation to the penetrative abilities of the standard AP round, the only relevant line in your graph is the slashed one, showing the penetration after hitting duraluminum sheeting first, since in order to hit the pilot armour the round would need to penetrate the aircraft skin. Note also the chart does not take into account the effect of hitting one of the Spitfires aluminum struts or formers, much more substantial.

Lots of them.

[pstyle]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

Absence of evidence does not equal evidence of absence.

Just to be pedantic :

In many historical cases, absence of evidence is evidence of absence. It's then a matter of degree or probability how strong that evidential gap is with respect to the event proposed.

I think what you mean to say is that absence of evidence is not PROOF of absence.

[AbortedMan]

My dog smiles with his tail.

...am I helping?

[*Buzzsaw*]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

I did. You seem to be confusing "my source doesn't mention the tungsten ammo" or "the tungsten ammo was less common than the standard ammo" with "the tungsten ammo was in short supply"

If you can't quote it, then I'll accept that you agree.

Not confused, the ammunition was in short supply, wasn't part of the standard loadout.

Did it exist as part of a Luftwaffe ordinance plan? No idea. Probably, at some point, who knows when?

I actually think its up to advocates for its use to prove it was a part of the battle.

More importantly, like other glitches which affect the game, it is creating an ahistorical enviroment.

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by *Buzzsaw*

Not confused, the ammunition was in short supply, wasn't part of the standard loadout.

You don't have a source, but you keep claiming there was some kind of ammo shortage with that particular round.

[lonewulf]

I don't know if people are or aren't using 100% 8mm tungsten, but even if they are, is it really an issue? If 2cm cannon rounds easily penetrate aircraft armour (ball goes through about 14mm worth at 200m - that's more than twice the thickness of a Spit back plate) what's the difference? It just means that an E 1 can probably kill you just as quick as an E 3, if it gets rounds on your head or back plate. The trick of course, as others have already pointed out, is to avoid a situation where this can happen. Much easier said than done of course but that's the challenge.

[ATAG_Doc]

Originally Posted by lonewulf

I don't know if people are or aren't using 100% 8mm tungsten, but even if they are, is it really an issue? If 2cm cannon rounds easily penetrate aircraft armour (ball goes through about 14mm worth at 200m - that's more than twice the thickness of a Spit back plate) what's the difference? It just means that an E 1 can probably kill you just as quick as an E 3, if it gets rounds on your head or back plate. The trick of course, as others have already pointed out, is to avoid a situation where this can happen. Much easier said than done of course but that's the challenge.

Nope not at all.

[*Buzzsaw*]

Originally Posted by lonewulf

I don't know if people are or aren't using 100% 8mm tungsten, but even if they are, is it really an issue? If 2cm cannon rounds easily penetrate aircraft armour (ball goes through about 14mm worth at 200m - that's more than twice the thickness of a Spit back plate) what's the difference? It just means that an E 1 can probably kill you just as quick as an E 3, if it gets rounds on your head or back plate. The trick of course, as others have already pointed out, is to avoid a situation where this can happen. Much easier said than done of course but that's the challenge.

Actually M-Geschoss actually had poor penetration when it came to armour, what it did was penetrate the skin of the aircraft, then explode, and because of the large amount of explosive filling, more than a standard HE round, the explosive force was enough to blow whole sections of the aircraft skin off, and without the skin strength, the structures of wings and fuselage often failed.

This particular 7.92mm tungsten round in the game gives the German side an ahistorical advantage which they did not have.

It allows players to load up 2000 rounds and 60 seconds worth of firing into the E-1, and get equal power, same penetration as a 20mm AP round, more firing time, and better accuracy than the 20mm cannon in the E-3 and E-4, which the Luftwaffe said was a better weapons system, and which only allowed Luftwaffe pilots 7 seconds of firing time.

The game has created a weapons system for the 109's which isn't based on any kind of historical reality. The Germans were converting their MG armed E-1's as fast as they could into cannon armed versions because the cannon versions were more effective. The real life pilots complained when they had to fly the E-1's. The opposite is happening in CoD. Go on the servers, the guys who have the biggest scores are flying the E-1, and Blue flyers are converting wholesale into this plane from the E-3 and E-4.

Where are the tests showing what this round could do in penetrative terms? Where are the historical records showing its use in Luftwaffe fighters in 1940? No one has produced anything.

What we have now is a legal hack, we might as well allow the Germans to use the pulse cannon of the Su-26.

[BadgerSmedly]

Tally Ho Gents!

Wasn't Paul Richie given a near fatal neck wound from an AP round going through his hurricane's seat back plate whilst he was in France? Circa 1939/1940. Can't get to the book at the mo but will confirm.

I remember that the undertone was that after this everyone had noted that the 'game had changed'.

Regards

Badger