Soviet fighters and 4.12

[1984]

Originally Posted by gaunt1

I think Yak-9 1942 and Yak-9D are OK, they have very well modeled FM. Maybe their climb rate is a bit too much, but really just a bit.

1 sec of climb (like extra 100 kg of weight), 1.5 sec of turn (like extra 150 kg of weight=heavy yak-9t, d... etalon of yak-9 1942 have 16.5 sec) and 5 (maybe 10) km/h of speed - it's not so much?!

don't make me laugh, pls...

in game and in RL it's was much, and i think, this is why now yak-9 1942 not like real very maneuverable original...

something like this, i think, was only yak-3 (if 20.21 sec in compare it's true - it's just unbelievable, because totally wrong) or yak-9m with pf2 and with good quality (with 3050 kg of FULL weight with 480 kg of fuel)...

Lavochkins and VK-107 powered Yak-9s are that need serious FM changes.

of course, but not so as you think and as mainly write here...

[gaunt1]

1984!

I have no idea from where you got those numbers for Yak-9 1942 model.
Current FM is correct. No need to change that.

in game and in RL it's was much, and i think, this is why now yak-9 1942 not like real very maneuverable original...

I've never ever had problems shooting down '42-43 LW fighters in a Yak-9. The Yak easily outturn anything german, its climb rate and acceleration are also quite good.


Check this:
http://simhq.net/forum/ubbthreads.ph...1284449/1.html

Yak series.
Again we have a lot of modifications with considerable fluctuation between results.
TsAGI book "Samoletostroenie V SSSR":
Yak1 - 20-21sec turntime, 275m turnradius
Yak1B - 17-19sec turntime, 275m turnradius
Book A.T.Stepanets "Istrebiteli Yak perioda Velikoj otechestvennoj vojny":
Yak1 prototype - 24sec turntime
Yak1'41 M-105P engine - 20-21sec turntime
Yak1'42 M-105PA engine - 19-20sec turntime
Yak1B'43 M-105PF engine - 19sec turntime
Yet theres one thing what helps to find true relative performance - NII VVS made multiple testfights between various Yak modifications and captured Bf109F2 and G2 and these test reports are quoted in book "Istrebiteli Yak perioda Velikoj otechestvennoj vojny" alongside Yaks improvement history.
These test fights revealed that Bf109F2 had advantage in horizontal and vertical turning against all Yak1 models both with M-105PA and more powerfull M-109PF engine.
The only Yak1 what overcome Bf109 (only Bf109G2) in turnrates were 1943 year Yak1 models with improved aerodynamics and M-105PF engine and 1943 year Yak1B with M-105PF engine.

The turn time of the Yak-9 didnt improve over the earlier models, so 17.5s is nonsense.

[Pursuivant]

Given the variable production quality of certain Soviet planes, and perhaps optimistic official assessments of their performance, I wonder if the most diplomatic way to resolve the issue wouldn't be to have different FM and DM models for production vs. test versions of certain aircraft.

A possibly simpler option would to create a "production version" loadout option. It would add mass and/or drag to the FM like a weapon or drop tank, but couldn't be jettisoned. That would be a nice method of simulating things like poor production quality or engine compression.

This option wouldn't need to be just for Soviet planes. Some of the late war German and Japanese aircraft were also relatively poorly built, as were planes such as the Brewster Buffalo.

[1984]

Originally Posted by gaunt1

I have no idea from where you got those numbers for Yak-9 1942 model.

of course, because you only write and not read...

Check this:
http://simhq.net/forum/ubbthreads.ph...1284449/1.html

data from old posts from don't know who, on english? ok, i read it 2-3 years ago, but you really not understand what i read all this and more on original language many times?...

The turn time of the Yak-9 didnt improve over the earlier models, so 17.5s is nonsense.

how i see, for you all here nonsence - turntime, perfomance, fm etc... what i can say here, if you not belive and not read? i can't do here nothing...

[CWMV]

From Soviet Combat Aircraft of the Second World War, Vol. 1: Single-Engined Fighters
(Yefim Gordon, Dmitri Khazanov)

[1984]

Originally Posted by gaunt1

Check this:
http://simhq.net/forum/ubbthreads.ph...1284449/1.html

ok, i check it for fun again, and...


quote from this "great" post, about yak-3 -

The second plane is Yak3 only this time its hugely overmodelled - another aerodynamics anomaly in the game. Again like in La case theres a lot of myths about Yak3 performance...


Another cause of such speculations about Yak3 turning abilities is 17sec turntime shown by Yak1M (Yak3 prototype) - a lot of books catched this number and automatically assigned it to Yak3, when NII VVS test results of serial Yak3 showed only 21sec turnrate (source A.T.Stepanets "Istrebiteli Yak perioda Velikoj otechestvennoj vojny").

(Як-1М М-105ПФ2 ("Дублер") - prototype of yak-3, 16-17 sec of turntime)...


and NOW, what written in this book -

По сравнению с "Дублером" серийные Як-З первых выпусков имели более низкие летно-тактические характеристики, а именно: скорость из-за более низкого качества производственного выполнения - меньше на 15...20 км/ч, время набора высоты 5000 м - 171 больше на 0,5 мин, практический потолок - меньше на 500 м, время выполнения виража на высоте 1000 м - больше на 1...2 с...

(well - 18-19 sec for yak with some defects and not normal quality from special tests)...

and, finally -

Конструкторским бюро, ЛИИ, ЦАГИ с серийными заводами была проведена серьезная работа по выявлению и устранению причин снижения летных характеристик. В результате начиная примерно с октября 1944 г. (с 16-й серии) летно-тактические характеристики были практически приведены в соответствие с характеристиками "Дублера".

plus, just logic - HOW yak-3 can EASY outturn captured, "light" a-8 with 4000 kg (+ 1.58 ata?) and with 21 sec, if he self "have" 20-21 sec?!


so...

normal serial yak-3 it's - 2629 - 2692 kg (2722.44 in 4.11) and 17-18 sec (20.21 (!) sec in 4.11)...

with speed and climb (with climb, maybe) all good, how i see...


plus, important thing - 2 (before 13 serie) and 3 (after 13 serie) guns -

Первоначально (до 13-й серии) Як-З был вооружен одной мотор-пушкой ШВАК и одним синхронным пулеметом УБС (выпущено 197 самолетов), затем стали добавлять еще один синхронный пулемет (выпущено 4004 машины).

or -

Параллельно с освоением производства шло устранение недостатков нового истребителя. Особенно много нареканий вызывало его слабое вооружение, и 22 мая 1944г. вышло Постановление ГКО № 5942сс «Об установке на самолет Як-3 2-го пулемета Березина». После этого НКАП своим приказом № 356сс от 26 мая обязал заводы с 15 июня сдавать истребители только с таким вооружением. Второй УБ-12,7 внедрили на 13-й серии после сдачи 197-ми «двухточечных» самолетов.

%, of normal yak-3s, can be similar with this (but yak-9u have more serious problems... and - again - about work of военная приемка) -

Заводские испытания серийных Як-9У омского авиазавода, проведенные в августе 1944 года, показали, что у 20 процентов машин максимальная скорость у земли была 560-570 км /ч, у 30 процентов - 570-575 км /ч и у половины - 575-580 км /ч.

Следует отметить, что омский завод NQ 166 испытывал большие трудности из-за поступавших, зачастую, некондиционных воздушных винтов. Так, на восьми машинах из облетанной 29 августа партии, пришлось 22 раза переставлять винты, вызывавшие тряску. Из них сдать заказчику удалось лишь два истребителя.

and - if we remember situation with la-7 - here all can be similar too...

plus -

В марте 1945 вышел отчет о заводских испытаниях Ла-7 с АШ-82ФН N 2225 с 2х20 мм. Скорость 590 км/час у земли и 675 км/час на 6150 м (1880,163).

if this etalon for production (don't know, maybe no), 590 (nominal) + 35 (forsazh, can + 40, because better aerodynamics) = 625 km/h at SL for normal la-7 (prototype, 597 (1015 mm) + 35-40= 632-637... well, 635 in middle)...

well, something like this... maybe with la-7 and 625 i'm wrong, maybe no...


+ for thinking, other part of "справочник основных данных самолетов" (attached)...