I Refuse To Fly WW2 CoD German Aircraft. Why?

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by BlackBerry

Nazi is nazi.

IN HUMAN BEING HISTORY, THE FIRST MASS BOMBING OF CIVILLIANS IS GUERNICA.

Hardly. Guernica was a propaganda stunt of the anti-fascist powers, inflating

Also mass bombing of civilians preceeded Guernica by decades. The Italians excercised it in their Ethiopian campaign, the British bombed arab villages to terrorize the population in Iraq, the French bombed Damascus in 1925, and there are the Zeppeling raids.


Damascus in flames as the result of the French air raid on October 18, 1925. / French officers inspecting the damage

Guernica was a quiet village. The nearest military target of any consequence was a factory on the outskirts of the town, which manufactured various war products. The factory went through the attack unscathed. Thus, the motivation of the bombing was clearly one of intimidation. Furthermore, a majority of the town's men were away as they were fighting on behalf of the Republicans. Thus, the town at the time of the bombing was populated mostly by women and children.[14]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guernica_(painting)



"Well done", German bombers, and their fans 70 years later.

"Quiet village"? With pastors and lambs and stuff like that? Get real.

Sure, it was a perfectly normal little town, in the frontline, with two Basque battalions in it.

The Germans and Italians simply bombed a strategic chokepoint, and attempted to block the roads leading in and out of the city, and thus trapping the Republican forces.

Regrettably about four hundred innocents died in the process (the exact number was never really established though, nobody kept record how many died in the bombing, how many in the fighting and how many 'suspicious ones' were executed as typical in this civil war).

Allied and Soviet press boosted this again tenfold, up to 6000 dead were claimed.

Military situation

Advances by Nationalist troops led by Generalísimo Francisco Franco had eaten into the territory controlled by the Republican Government. The Basque Government, an autonomous regional administrative body formed by Basque nationalists and leftists, sought to defend Biscay and parts of Guipuzcoa with its own light Basque Army. [b]At the time of the raid, Guernica represented a focal strategic point for the Republican forces./b] It stood between the Nationalists and capture of Bilbao. Bilbao was seen as key to bringing the war to a conclusion in the north of Spain. Guernica also was the path of retreat for the Republicans from the northeast of Biscay.
Prior to the Condor Legion raid, the town had not been directly involved in the fighting, although Republican forces were in the area; 23 battalions of Basque army troops were at the front east of Guernica. The town also housed two Basque army battalions, although it had no static air defences, and it was thought that no air cover could be expected due to recent losses of the Republican Air Force.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing...tary_situation

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Dutch

November 1940.

Notable Luftwaffe Operation - Devastation of Coventry's aircraft industries.

Notable Bomber Command Operations - Krupps factory at Essen.

Corrected for factuality.

Both sides attempted to hit industries, but there was of course a lot of collateral damage.

Bomber Command started its attacks on German cities on the night of 11 May 1940, a plan that was considered for some time by the War Cabinet, well before any German meaningful bombing of British soil occured (a few bombs fell on Orkney island, killing a single man iirc)

RAF Bomber Command was authorized to attack German targets east of the Rhine on May 15, 1940; the Air Ministry authorized Air Marshal Charles Portal to attack targets in the Ruhr, including oil plants and other civilian industrial targets which aided the German war effort, such as blast furnaces (which at night were self-illuminating).

The underlying motive for the attacks was to divert German air forces away from the land front. Churchill explained the rationale of his decision to his French counterparts in a letter dated the 16th: "I have examined today with the War Cabinet and all the experts the request which you made to me last night and this morning for further fighter squadrons. We are all agreed that it is better to draw the enemy on to this Island by striking at his vitals, and thus to aid the common cause."

Due to the inadequate British bomb-sights the strikes that followed had the effect of terror raids on towns and villages. On the night of 15/16 May, 96 bombers crossed the Rhine and attacked. 78 had been assigned oil targets, but only 24 claimed to have accomplished their objective.

On the night of May 17/18, RAF Bomber Command bombed oil installations in Hamburg and Bremen; the H.E. and 400 incendiaries dropped caused six large, one moderately large and 29 small fires. As a result of the attack, 47 people were killed and 127 were wounded. Railway yards at Cologne were attacked on the same night.

During May, Essen, Duisburg, Düsseldorf and Hanover were attacked in a similar fashion by Bomber Command. In June, attacks were made on Dortmund, Mannheim, Frankfurt and Bochum. At the time, Bomber Command lacked the necessary navigational and bombing technical background and the accuracy of the bombings during the night attacks was abysmal. Consequently, the bombs were usually scattered over a large area, and the bombing was seen as indiscriminate. There was an uproar in Germany, Jodl wanted retalitory bombing attacks, but Hitler turned him down.

RAF BC during this period in May-June 1940 attempted to limit the bombing to military/industrial targets, just like the Germans tried to do so in Battle of Britain.

Operation Abigail Rachel was the bombing of Mannheim the first deliberate terror raid on Germany on the 16 December. The British had been waiting for the opportunity to experiment with such a raid aimed at creating a maximum of destruction in a selected town since the summer 1940, and the opportunity was given after the German raid on Coventry.

Internally it was declared to be a reprisal for Coventry and Southampton. The new bombing policy was officially ordered by Churchill at the start of December and the operation on condition it receive no publicity and be considered an experiment. Target marking missed the city center and most bombs missed the city center. This led to the development of the bomber stream.Despite the lack of decisive success of this raid, approval was granted for further Abigails. This was the start of a British drift away from precision attacks on military targets and towards area bombing attacks on whole cities.

[carguy_]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

Uhm, it was Britain who did declare war on Germany, refused German peace offers during the war (several times in fact), and it was Britain who started bombing German cities.

Peacemongers Germany, who knew!

To put it like the poor British were 'forced' to fight back against an agression is pure BS.

Right. Because there was no aggression to be fought in Europe at that time.

They had a choice in the matter. It was the Brits who choose war, and it was the Brits to choose to wage that war by targetting the enemy cities and civillian population itself.

I thought war started with Germany`s aggresion to Poland earlier

Don't blame it anyone else. Britain was not 'attacked' and Britain was not fighting 'back'. Britain wanted to fight and it wanted to fight in this rather dirty way. At least be a man about it.

Right. They should have stayed out until they`re all alone.

It set nothing - an army besieged a city and took it. There's hardly anything special about it. Bombarment of a besieged city is permitted under the rules of war, within some reasonable limits - some sort of military advantage from the bombardment, some sort of restraint from pointless destruction IS required, however.

Also straffing thousands of civilians leaving the city. They did set a tone for leading a war - a total war once again.

It set the tone for war propaganda perhaps, but certainly not for the conduct military operations. The French and British militaries were well aware of that fact, but of course their propaganda sold a different picture to their public.

Because Hitler never conducted anything other than a military operation

[ATAG_Doc]

All this talk of bombing innocent civilians gets me totally pumped UP and looking forward to the later periods of IL-2 where we can get into our B-17s finally and into large formations and go to Dresden again. 8!!!

[arthursmedley]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Doc

All this talk of bombing innocent civilians gets me totally pumped UP and looking forward to the later periods of IL-2 where we can get into our B-17s finally and into large formations and go to Dresden again. 8!!!

You git! I've just sprayed coffee all over my laptop. lol.

[Blakduk]

Enough with the Nazi apologist BS!
Theirs was a belief system based on extermination of those whom they considered 'untermenschen' after they had sucked all the energy they had to give. They manipulated genuine grievances to nefarious ends and damn near destroyed their own people in the process. The atrocities they committed were almost beyond comprehension, and the wretched fate of nations such as Ukraine and Poland was to be caught between the twin horrors of Stalin and Hitler.
It was an ignoble cause and unfortunately some noble men fought for them, whilst other noble German men were killed by that feral regime because they dared to oppose it.

Hitler was a ruthless, amoral politician who routinely betrayed agreements he made with opponents once he had the power to do so- he nearly won the war in the West in May 1940 when Lord Halifax almost got the numbers in the British parliament to begin negotiations with Hitler for an armistice.

Both sides of the conflict began the war expressing noble intent to avoid civilian deaths and even attempting to avoid the destruction of private property, but once the dogs of war are set loose there is no controlling whom or what they will consume.

I have no doubt the allied nations winning the conflict saved Western Europe from a new dark age. I play a flight simulator GAME to test my skill and enjoy the thrill of virtual combat, not pretend that I am actually engaged in a life and death struggle that has the potential to wipe liberal democracies off the face of the planet. That's why i can get routinely shot down and laugh as i say 'Damn, i got shot in the head again!'

[winny]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

Uhm, it was Britain who did declare war on Germany, refused German peace offers during the war (several times in fact), and it was Britain who started bombing German cities.

To put it like the poor British were 'forced' to fight back against an agression is pure BS.

They had a choice in the matter. It was the Brits who choose war, and it was the Brits to choose to wage that war by targetting the enemy cities and civillian population itself.

Don't blame it anyone else. Britain was not 'attacked' and Britain was not fighting 'back'. Britain wanted to fight and it wanted to fight in this rather dirty way. At least be a man about it.
.

.

You're seriously playing the 'poor old Germany' card?

The Brits did chose war. And as a Brit I'm quite proud that they took a stand against a man as pathetically egotistical as Hitler.

He was warned that if he invaded Poland that Britain and France would declare war. He didn't believe them, more fool him. They guy was an idiot and his people paid a heavy price because of, and NEVER forget this, him.

And the first air raids of WW2 on civilians were carried out by the LW in Poland.
Like I said, they set the tone.

As for Britain fighting in a dirty way, how about the deliberate starvation of people In eastern europe by nazi Germany? Is that clean? Or the industrialisation of executions? Or the many air raids that they carried out?

At the end of it all there is one man responsible, and he took the cowards way out, hiding in a bunker whilst he continued to let his people die.

As a Brit I'm not proud of Dresden or hamburg but Adolf didn't care so why should I?

To blame the british for starting the war smacks of nazi sympathy speak.
So are you? It would explain a lot.

[BlackBerry]

Originally Posted by winny

You're seriously playing the 'poor old Germany' card?

The Brits did chose war. And as a Brit I'm quite proud that they took a stand against a man as pathetically egotistical as Hitler.

He was warned that if he invaded Poland that Britain and France would declare war. He didn't believe them, more fool him. They guy was an idiot and his people paid a heavy price because of, and NEVER forget this, him.

And the first air raids of WW2 on civilians were carried out by the LW in Poland.
Like I said, they set the tone.

As for Britain fighting in a dirty way, how about the deliberate starvation of people In eastern europe by nazi Germany? Is that clean? Or the industrialisation of executions? Or the many air raids that they carried out?

At the end of it all there is one man responsible, and he took the cowards way out, hiding in a bunker whilst he continued to let his people die.

As a Brit I'm not proud of Dresden or hamburg but Adolf didn't care so why should I?

To blame the british for starting the war smacks of nazi sympathy speak.
So are you? It would explain a lot.

Furfurst's opinion about history is distorted. As a man from allied side, I support you.

Luftwaffe tried to kill children and women BEFORE WWII in Spain civil war in 1937.

Britain has beaten several autarchy countries in history, I am proud of Britain's contribution to free world.

[pencon]

Once again it's a SIM people , none of us alive today were personally involved. Would you German haters buy this sim if there was no enemy to fight ? Perhaps you guys should buy a sim where people sit in rocking chairs and sip lemonade .Flying a German plane in this SIM does not make a person a nazi sympathizer any more than flying a Russian plane in the next sim will make you a communist . Or flying a British plane will make you a tea sipper . Get a grip . It's a SIM and a video game. I also fly an Fw190d9 RC plane but I don't profess to any nazi sympathies .I think the interest people have in flying the LW planes is in some ways similar to the interest they have In watching mafia movies and other crime stories .Didn't Britain at one time have a massive "British Empire " ? How do you suppose that happened ? Did they impose it by being nice to the countries they conquered ?One more thing , some of you better not fly the Italian planes either , they were German allies .

[AndyJWest]

.Flying a German plane in this SIM does not make a person a nazi sympathizer

Posting pro-Nazi material and links to holocaust-denial websites does, you clueless troll.

And P.S. I've flown Luftwaffe planes in sims often enough. I can tell simulation from reality. I am also aware that not everyone may feel comfortable associating themselves, even indirectly, with the political regime sponsoring such planes. This is of course an individual ethical choice - one that needs to be considered in the context of a simulation that seems to encourage lunatic-fringe far-right participants to engage in soapboxing to push their vile agenda. In such a context, to say that it is 'just a simulation' and ignore what is going on is quite possibly morally questionable. I suggest that those with any morals ask themselves the question, and make their own decisions.