3D Cliffs Of Dover Pictures

[raaaid]

wtach 3:37 of the johny lee video and youll see how this system contrary to 6dof is like a window since IT CHANGES FOV with position

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-e...layer_embedded

this other video reflects two things:

1) how the johny lee system is old and widely used in media if you think about it, game design is light years away from tv media

2) for what i know bin laden could not be death, 911 could have been a green screen thing, in fact even nyc could be a green screen thing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTli6tlLg0M

[Ailantd]

raaaid... what was your point?. I lost the track of the conversation.
That things can be faked in media? sure.

But I though we were talking about how real a 3D stereo can be and if you could see 3D stereo in 2D photographs. I don´t know were are you going now.

[raaaid]

that green screen apply the very same concept from your cave:

it renders the right perspective from the observer-camera point of view

if games did that which is posible with headtracking and you added it 3d you couldnt tell the difference from the game to looking at real life from a window

ive seen refered johny lee efect on tv as cheap 3d

and your rgiht moving sidways increases your depth perception is very tipical on movies

[Ailantd]

Originally Posted by raaaid

that green screen apply the very same concept from your cave:

it renders the right perspective from the observer-camera point of view

if games did that which is posible with headtracking and you added it 3d you couldnt tell the difference from the game to looking at real life from a window

ive seen refered johny lee efect on tv as cheap 3d

and your rgiht moving sidways increases your depth perception is very tipical on movies

Its not the same:

cave/FullFOVglasses chroma/cinena game3D cinema3D johny system

stereo V X V V X

fov V X X X V

scale V X X X V

movement V X V X V

edit:
I made a nice table... but the format does not save it.


In a cave you have stereo, matching fov, scale and movement.
In a normal cinema, even with chroma, you have nothing of this. The perspective of the chroma fits the whole image, but not your own perspective or point of view.
In a game 3D you can have stereo, matching fov and movment, but not scale ( unless using the window mode I talked about in the later post that would made the game unplayable because of the zoom )
In cinema 3D you have stereo, but you can not match the fov, scale or movement.
In Jony system you match fov, scale ( with the limit of the screen wich is a limit that does not exist in a cave ) and movement, but not stereo.

[raaaid]

yes i think we agree

the cave its like being there johny lee system like looking there through a window

on the other topic i cant tell for others

but i have never seen reality like in a 3d movie except for brief seconds during my life though according tests my binocular vision works

on the other hand the wikipedia explain stereopsis as triangulation, THIS IS WRONG,

from the superposition with each eye of \ and / your brain builds I in depth, that is how it really works

[Ailantd]

Originally Posted by raaaid

yes i think we agree

the cave its like being there johny lee system like looking there through a window

on the other topic i cant tell for others

but i have never seen reality like in a 3d movie except for brief seconds during my life though according tests my binocular vision works

on the other hand the wikipedia explain stereopsis as triangulation, THIS IS WRONG,

from the superposition with each eye of \ and / your brain builds I in depth, that is how it really works

Yes, but the johny system is worse than looking trough a window, as it not provides two different images. It can completely fool you if you are far away from the screen so that the two images were almost the same, but if you come close to the screen the effect is lost.

The problem with cinema is that is not capable to match all parameters that your brain needs to be completely fooled as it only can offer stereo, but nothing more. So the brain do what it can do with that information and makes you feel a sensation that is not the same from reality. Like when you cross your eyes in reality providing the brain wrong information. It´s a kind of new sensation we called 3D because we need to call it with some name and 3D sounds cool. Also cinemakers want you to feel that new sensation so they exaggerated it to be more noticieable and people say ohhh, ahhhh.... nothing more. They call that real 3D but is not. You know what real 3D is when you have tryed a cave. Then you know that a real 3D is possible and is far away from the 3D cinema experience.

Of course the 3D feel like any other feeling or sensation is "brain made". I think wikipedia is talking about from the deph information comes, and here yes, it comes from some kind of triangularization that is processed in the brain. Of course, you can feel 3D without it, but then the information is faked by the brain and is not representative of reality.

[raaaid]

so as an expert whats your theory of my seeing this in 3d?



hallucination

subtle chromostereopsis

subtle shade with distance with hints my brain into distance

that is actually such an alien perfect 3d you dont notice as you dont notice 3d in real life

...

[irR4tiOn4L]

Originally Posted by Les

Tilt shift lenses can recreate that sense of scale in 2D, do a Google search for 'tilt shift lens video' and you'll find some examples.

In regards to seeing the proper scale of clouds and things in-game, that can be experienced by projecting the game at 1:1 scale onto a large screen. I never realized how massive the clouds in the game actually are until I saw that.

And, for what it's worth Raaid, I too have seen the kind of movie-like 3D effect in real life that you're describing. And yes, I've even seen it while playing IL2 (!!!). But, so what, it's no big deal. It just requires some concentration and a shift in perception, to notice something in real life we usually just take for granted, and to allow your senses to be more thoroughly tricked by the illusion of three dimensional space being depicted in a game (or picture). It's a trivial thing really, but some people can do it and some people can't, so you have to be careful. I think it's just as ridiculous for those who can do it to say it's something mystical or other-worldy as it is for those who can't do it to say it's impossible.

The senses are easily tricked, into perceiving things that aren't there and into not perceiving things that are there (most people would be surprised).

Anyway...too much OT now for me.

I think most people can perceive depth in 2d images by nature. Try this for example - close one eye - do you still see depth? Yes, you do, and why is that? Because the brain relies on cues other than JUST stereoscopic vision.

Of course, in a 2d image on a monitor, some cues conflict (stereoscopic vision is saying "NOT 3D" while other cues are saying "3D") and so you have to fight your brain, depending on how strong your stereoscopic vision bias is, to focus on certain cues and see more '3d'. I too can look at a picture and see a flat image or, with focus, have a perception of depth. I think most people can.

Where I'm baffled all in is when Raaiid describes not seeing the 3d effect in reality BUT SEEING IT IN A 3D MOVIE! I think he just tends to ignore the effect in real life (like most everyone else) without realising its there, and after going to a 3d movie where the effect is often exaggerated with excessive seperation or where the sheer visual drama gives it a big wow factor, he now expects reality to 'wow' him in the same way. But reality isn't as novel as Avatar. Well raaiid, go up in a plane, or grand canyon, or other such things and youll realise that theres a heck of a '3d' effect going on there!

I should also mention that, apart from 3d vision, for your average home user putting a fresnel lense, which straightens out light to infinity, in front of your monitor will give you a depth perception effect all on its own, will reduce eyestrain and will strengthen the 3d effect with stereoscopic glasses. We can't control for all factors in games/cinema, but we can give enough cues to build a very respectable 3d effect.

[raaaid]

well maybe my asumption im normal is not correct

the thing is that i see everything flat except 3d movies

but im learning to control my 3d perception

im learning to see 3d by crosing very slightly my eyes without seeing blurred, that is unfocused, so i can have at will a 3d or flat perception

[Ailantd]

Originally Posted by raaaid

so as an expert whats your theory of my seeing this in 3d?



hallucination

subtle chromostereopsis

subtle shade with distance with hints my brain into distance

that is actually such an alien perfect 3d you dont notice as you dont notice 3d in real life

...

As I said, I can believe that you feel that in 3D as a brain, yes, hallucination or fake 3D, extracted from other information ( I think is not difficult for any in this forum to realize your brain works in a extrange way ).
As you said shade/fog can contribute to depth perception, unless in space there is no fog but in nebulas, so that shade, if is there, is not related to depth.

But, even if I can asume the possibility that you feel 3d sensation looking a 2d photo where is no depth information available ( like fog or perspective ), I can´t in any way think that the depth information you think you are extracting from that photo is representative of reality, because that information simply is not there.

If you agree with this, nice. If you don´t there is extremely easy to prove you wrong. You can render two spheres with arbitrary different sizes, one closer to the camera and then you have to tell what one is closer. There is no way you can do that without pure casuality. Or even more easy. You can do this even in the real world. Pick two stars at night, guess wich one is closer, then compare it with astronomical data. You will found you wrong most of the times.