MW50 -Secondary effects were cooling of the engine .

[69th_Dragon]

Originally Posted by 41Sqn_Banks

How do you know that a cooling effect is not implemented?

Good question...do you have the answer? I have another,what sources did the designers use to implement the MW50 system into the game? I myself have a tonne of books and manuals on 109's and 190's and they all very from one to the other. One thing I do know as fact is that this was all during wartime and parts,supplies,fuel,political interference there are just too many factors at play to have accurate results on top of the fact that there was a whole bunch of chaos and things blowing up which made for I'm sure a not very good environment for alot of basic field operations.

I'm not here to sling mud but I have flown this sim since day one and can only say you all know that we have had to adapt and evolve along with the game from any patch that has come along whether it's good or bad. I would like to see better documentation from TD or anyone else that changes things in the game so when new comers come along or old hands casually return they don't have to sift thru pages of "My computer penis is bigger than yours posts" Kind of defeats the purpose of community input if one out of every 10 posts contains useful information DIRECTLY RELATED to this sim and the rest is just a fact finding peeing match.

Again not slinging mud at any individual at all,would just like to see less zoo mentality and more info sharing.I try to fly all the time by the book,basically I don't ever see an overheat message because I nurse my plane from startup to when I put it back on the ground.I push the motor to the limits and beyond when I'm in a fight or running away only to keep my virtual life intact.It makes the game fun for me and I'm sure many others flying this way. I really have a hard time believing that these pilots flew around with the throttle firewalled finger on the trigger scanning the skies looking for their next kill marking for the tail,maybe some did but I tend to believe that most spent a lot of their time staring at the photo of the beautiful woman they would like to get home too and not crapping their pants when someone yelled bandits.

That being said my question is this.Would a game designer or other person who works on this sim be able to explain in detail how the mw50 system that they have put in this game works so I can fly accordingly? I have always shortly after engine startup turned on the system and left it on during the duration of my flight assuming that it only engages when I throttle past 100% at which time I monitor its use with my clock on panel.I also never engage the system above 6000m. When I say by the book, from a variety of books that I have when they talk about the system it was used very sparingly because of to sum up all accounts there was a war going on and way to many factors were at play and sometimes the chief just told me not to use it today because he didn't get a chance to fix it when I broke it on my last sortie.

I apologize in advance for any spellin mistakes or grammar cuz I know the grammer police are out there and another apology for this being my first post here and I don't have a signature or pc specs to compare my pc penis with others but believe me it's a lot bigger and better.

~S~ Dragon

[Mustang]

The mustang P51 H
Use - water/methanol.


http://www.crazyhorseap.be/Mustangs/...H/P-51H_02.htm
http://www.mustangsmustangs.com/p-51...ants/P-51H.php

North American engineers and Rolls Royce Merlin engineers were morons?"
I think not.

The German Luftwaffe increased the horsepower of the Focke-Wulf 190D-9 fighter aircraft from 1776HP to 2240HP using 50/50% water/methanol injection.
The allies soon followed by fitting the P51 Mustang and other high performance aircraft with water/methanol injection.

I think the data I'm looking for are very close,
For the benefits of cooling for water/methanol

[BadAim]

Wow. I'm utterly blinded by your brilliance Mustang. We're all fools, we should have followed your all seeing omniscience from the beginning, I can't believe that TD does not fall on their faces before you.

You should go immediately and shine your light on more worthy disciples, perhaps at the forums of a much more accurate combat flight sim than this poor sham of an arcade game that does not even deserve your attention, O great master!

[Mustang]

@BadAim
TD wants to do things right, And them works very hard, I respect them, Really!

1) I never attack anyone in this forum
2) only show realities
3) And I get only harsh words,
4) Is funny
5)Thanks for... "O great master!"

Originally Posted by BadAim

Wow. I'm utterly blinded by your brilliance Mustang. We're all fools,

6) TEN years of development to remove the FW 190 boost.
BadAim .....This answer to you some questions?

?





I saw a thousand discussions about 50 MW in many forums.

And now I find this
"the P51 H use water /methanol system"
And with this the P51 in emergency power get more horsepower and cooling effect on the engine.
Like it or not, Is a fact.

The physics are the same now and in WWII , There is no magic here, only common water and common methanol, and the P51 H use it,.
With equals results in WWII and 2012 year:
Current information, about water methanol systems and their effects.

Which injected a mixture of methanol and water into the cylinders to cool the mix. Cooling causes the air to become denser, therefore allowing more into each cylinder for a given volume. This is the same principle that intercoolers work on.

*Increase horsepower safely by 10-15%.
*Lower air temperatures by 50-200+ degrees.
*Decrease cylinder temperatures up to 300 degrees.

Nobody could show information for denies my "quotes" about water methanol effects

[RPS69]

Mustang, you have been attacked, but you answered back. That's your mistake.

And believe me, telling another people that they are nuts because they don't see THE truth, is not actually the way to better nothing, unless you are godsend to show mankind the light. And even then, only God will know, but you still have to convince mankind...

And really, in your case God is not going to throw lightning bolts and whatever on miscreants...

So why don't you try to offer the other chick as a more friendly approach?

TD have never appeared here, so which attack is important and which not?

More... everybody that matters here knows that MW50 is a cooling device. That was never the issue.

But even so, the general plane dynamics, need to take into account, in which situations it was meant to be used, and if there was a needed plane attitude...

So, the research is on the actual conditions in which it was engaged, not if the MW50 cooled the engine or not.

But... if you get engaged on low speed combat, with your engine at max revs, and MW50 engaged, I do expect your engine to overheat, because the cooling system in general will have a lowered efficiency.

This same concept applies to the SPits MkII with the 100 octane fuel.
WEP is emergency... not dogfight power...

So... why don't you start again from scratch and do the test of climbing with MW50 engaged and disengaged. And find if there is possible to reach higher altitudes faster with MW50 use, AND without overheating?

Maybe you can come back with a better case.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by RPS69

But... if you get engaged on low speed combat, with your engine at max revs, and MW50 engaged, I do expect your engine to overheat, because the cooling system in general will have a lowered efficiency.

Let me explain.

You are in dogfight al low speed...you are in bad combat situation...
and you need emergency power,
You must push the throtle over 100%.

Without Water methanol:
You get some power close to max revs and the engine get overheat maybe soon.



You are in dogfight al low speed,you are in bad combat situation...
and you need emergency power,

You must push the throtle over 100%

With water methanol you get more power, injected a

mixture of methanol and water into the cylinders to cool the mix. Cooling causes the air to become denser.
Increase horsepower safely, Lower air temperatures, and Decrease cylinder temperatures.

Nobody can understand ?

In both situations the engines will overheat.
Without methanol water the engine get overheat more quickly.
I'll go find manuals P 51 H .

But with the injection of wather methanol (MW50) , the overheat takes longer time, you can run saflely 10 minutes, in any condition, that's what says the Luftwaffe.

In 4.11 you can get engine on fire with 10 minutes of MW 50 ON.

[41Sqn_Banks]

Originally Posted by Mustang

But with the injection of wather methanol (MW50) , the overheat takes longer time, you can run saflely 10 minutes, in any condition, that's what says the Luftwaffe.

No way. Even if MW50 is authorized for a 10 minutes duration the maximum allowed oil and coolant temperatures still apply.

For example Merlin emergency power was authorized for 5 minutes, but the oil and coolant temperature must remain in the specified limits, see: http://www.spitfireperformance.com/dowding.pdf

The time limit means that the stress on the engine is that high that it will take considerable damage even without overheat after that time.

[Shardur]

I see the main problem with this thread is that one of the main posters, Mustang, seems to have a somewhat low competence in the English language that seems to prevent him form actually discussing anything or properly understanding posts made by other users. The fact that he seems to be unfamiliar with the concept of how to properly present sources complicates the matter further.

To the topic:

Originally Posted by RPS69

This same concept applies to the SPits MkII with the 100 octane fuel.
WEP is emergency... not dogfight power...

I think that the Spitfire is a bad comparison here since its boost does not come from a Water/Methanol injection system but from supercharger air compression. Creating additional boost with the help of a supercharger might be effective, but unlike a water injection does not help with heat management and actually creates a lot of additional heat. This also explains why the RAF recommends the WEP boost to be used only for 5min while the MW50 was recommended by the Luftwaffe to be used for 10min at a time.

[Mustang]

I hope that someone can understand this

And the reason For the FW 190 D9 has tank ( 39 minutes for water/methanol)


http://horsepowercalculators.net/tun...er-performance

Why is this important for cooling ?
"
The first-order phase transitions are those that involve a latent heat . During such a transition, a system either absorbs or releases a fixed (and typically large) amount of energy. During this process, the temperature of the system will stay constant as heat is added.” … read more

Which means that the water or methanol will try to keep the air / fuel mixture at a fixed temperature of 65*C for the methanol phase change, and 100*C for the water phase change, for a long time (until the entire fuel has changed state) while absorbing a very large amount of heat energy out of the compressed air.

Since the air entering into the water/methanol spray’s path (especially with a lack of an intercooler) can be as high as 100*C above ambient (so with an ambient temperature of about 40*C for under hood temps we’re talking about an air inlet temperature of around 140*C in the intake piping).

Once this 140*C air meets the water & methanol mixture both the water and methanol will attempt to bring down the air / fuel mixture down to 100*C (the boiling point of water) and if all the water has vaporized into steam, then further down to 65*C the boiling point of methanol. If both operations are successful then the final temperature of our mixture is 65*C or 25*C above ambient which is great for any intercooler, and even more impressive for a higher octane non-intercooled system like ours relying on water methanol injection.

Now there are two possible applications for water / methanol injection:

1- The typical added cooling application:

a. In this setup, the water / methanol mix is usually mixed in a 50/50 mix of water and methanol.

b. The jetting is usually about 10-15% the total fuel flow of the system:

For example a 300hp four cylinder car needs four 450cc/min fuel injectors to produce that power figure. Our total fuel flow at peak power is 450cc/min 4 = 1800cc/min or 1.8 liters per minute of fuel.

1 gallon is four liters and 1 hour is sixty minutes so our total fuel consumption is equivalent to 27 gallons per hour of fuel (if you were able to stay at peak hp and rpm for a whole hour).

The reason we’re doing this math is that water / methanol jets are rated in gallons per hour.

So 10 to 15% of 27 gallons per hour = 2.7 to 4.05 GPH injection nozzle.

Now remember that 50% of our mixture is methanol, which is a high octane gasoline. So when injection 15% water methanol mixture with 50% of that being methanol, then our final air fuel ration will be richer by 7% or about 1 AFR point. This means that to reach optimum power again and our optimum air fuel ration we need to either increase boost pressure or retune our car to optimize it for the added high octane fuel.

2- Using methanol as a fuel

In light of what we just mentioned about methanol being a fuel, you could possibly use water /methanol injection as a supplementary stand alone high octane fuel system. The trick here is to keep in mind that the amount of water you spray in the system must be controlled to prevent the engine from hydro lock.

So in using water / methanol as a supplemental fuel as well as a cooling agent, limit the water content to 5 to 7% of your fuel injector flow, and compensate for your added fuel demands with methanol.

[RPS69]

Originally Posted by Shardur

To the topic:

I think that the Spitfire is a bad comparison here since its boost does not come from a Water/Methanol injection system but from supercharger air compression. Creating additional boost with the help of a supercharger might be effective, but unlike a water injection does not help with heat management and actually creates a lot of additional heat. This also explains why the RAF recommends the WEP boost to be used only for 5min while the MW50 was recommended by the Luftwaffe to be used for 10min at a time.

I was doing a comparison in between engine blowing UP.

Still I must agree that the stationary condition must be worst for the Spitfire, since MW50 cools the engine even without movement.