What do you search in a combat flight sim?

[pupo162]

i will sue your list and edit to my likes,


Anyway these are my priority lists about a combat flight sim:

High priorities
- Flight model (it's a flight sim... every plane should fly almost like the real one) - BINGO
- Damage models - strike 2
- Sound engine - meh, this is a priority yes, but i very usually play soundless anyway.
- Demanding management of the plane (not only engine management, but also belts, oxigen, gunsight's bulbs ect...) - yes yes and yes.
- Atmospheric simulation (sun, clouds, haze.. maybe not visually perfect, but they must be there and must be VERY important for the pilot)
- AI - OK, this is probably, in my opinion, your bigest miss. we wont ever get 100 guys flying in the same server online, and even if we do, it will turn soon into a airquake. AI can keep fill the gaps and an easy way around to have historical size fights.


Low priorities
- Object 3D models - yes, i will be seeing them from high above, no need for uber detail. 1946 was about balanced
- 3D world graphics - Low priority, but still a priority
- Visual effects - Low priority, but still a priority
- Airbase life
- Weapon's historycal performance and calibration. -mixed feelings
- Communications (between pilots and with ground control... think about calling the mechanic because of an issue during the engine startup, talking directly to the command for info, having the command that alert you of a plane seen by some civil observers on the coast) -Low priority, but still a priority

Needless things
- Clickable cockpit -this is not needless. but isnt a priority too. its done already and works fine. i like it, and saves A LOT of time setting up keys.
- Manual ammo belt management - mixed feelings
- Interactive flak - THIS! THIS! THIS!, please THIS!
- Dynamic weather -Welll.... no, i guess. not a priority, but not needless
- Extreme weather like rain or storm -Welll.... no, i guess. not a priority, but not needless
- City life (it's a war... why should bombed families turn on the light? Here in Italy if you turned on the light you were to be strafed)... no, cows are useless... - meh. some parked cars, and sandbags in loondon would make it look more life like. now it looks like a zoombie city. still, its not a priority,
- Women between the pilot's arms - KILLL HER!
- Virtual pilot simulation (fatigue management, visibility skill, G-forces, damage model) - Bingo!, i mean, dont you think staying in your pc for 4 hours playing isnt fatiguing enough?, and visibility skills come with time. noobs cant spoot anything in first weeks



Good thread, hope 1c pops in and sees waht we actually want.

[6S.Manu]

Wow! As I thought the term "combat flight sim" means different things for many of us. In the past I had another discussion about mods and how they splitted the IL2 community, claiming that this community was already splitted in many groups: the ones who search realism, the ones who only like to fly and the one who only like to fight... the presence of so different server (talking about difficulty settings) was a proof.

Immersion and realism are vague words: I still remember the post of some guys joking about how the "realism lovers" need to really die when the screen comes black.

So if think that also this to concepts should be clarified.

If the moderators allow me I'll open another thread with a rating system.

@pupo: the actual absence of fatigue permits pilots to sustain high G-forces for dozen of minutes (until they win/die)... it clearly affects realism IMO.

[csThor]

A realistically modeled planeset, a realistically modelled pool of relevant ground and naval objects which are being used to create an immersive and believable environment. Artillery that shells an area, tanks that are having it out with their opponents, truck columns with supplies ... A living, breathing world and not just the "stale" aspect of flying for the sake of flying ... with a campaign like the old Red Baron II.

[Feathered_IV]

A girl with sideburns, sitting on my lap. And a Bofors gun

[pupo162]

Originally Posted by 6S.Manu

@pupo: the actual absence of fatigue permits pilots to sustain high G-forces for dozen of minutes (until they win/die)... it clearly affects realism IMO.

well, tis that fatigue its SOOOO ahrd to standerize. it would depend on everithing. On your training, your phisical ability, your height and weight, waht you ahd ate, how much time have you flown that day? that week?, are you passing throw some drama? i mean. its just impossible to have a realistic fatigue model.

still, in 1946 you have a ver simple faitgue model, if you hold a medium G turn ( something like 4g's i guess, for enought time, you will eventually black out.

[carguy_]

Originally Posted by pupo162

well, tis that fatigue its SOOOO ahrd to standerize. it would depend on everithing. On your training, your phisical ability, your height and weight, waht you ahd ate, how much time have you flown that day? that week?, are you passing throw some drama? i mean. its just impossible to have a realistic fatigue model.

Not so impossible. There is an average for everything. And there is an average for pilot fatigue also. Even if you implement ecceptional pilot fatigue resistance, it would be better than nothing. Currently a player is able to input maximum G (to the point of blacking out) for extended period of time.

In vertical flight where high speed diving is the norm, blacking out is much easier and ofcourse much frequent. Since Russian planes
- cannot reach speeds above 650km/h
- are mostly crappy at vertical maneuvers
they stick to their best tactic which is low speed horizontal, high G turns.
High G turns require applying high stick pressure. You will not black out at low speed, pulling the stick to the maximum for say 4 minutes. What most red pilots do (be it British or Russian planes) - they continously turn in the same direction until the blue plane stalls out or falls out of the turn circle. That is completely unrealistic. Not all red featured planes had light stick pressure. Some (very much like the Bf109)did require exceptional strenght to get the maximum horizontal turn doable by the aircraft airframe. As a result, in certain planes, only the strongest (and with the most stamina!!!) pilots could not only pull maximum horizontal Gs, but very few of them were ever able to sustain this amount stick pressure.

So in summary, in blue planes you can use trim to pull out of a dive BUT still you black out.
Red planes however are always able to pull their max Gs while in horizontal for unlimited time with no danger of blacking out.

Hence red planes expoit absence of pilot fatigue heavily in their favor.

You can always make it the same as blackout. When you pull max G for say 2minutes, your max stick pressure lowers itself, resulting in virtual pilot being unable to pull max horizontal G. When player lowers the stick pressure, he ragains fatigue and ability to pull maxG (gradually for say 15 seconds).

It is easy, but would make red pilots cry I know.

[6S.Manu]

Originally Posted by carguy_

Not so impossible. There is an average for everything. And there is an average for pilot fatigue also. Even if you implement ecceptional pilot fatigue resistance, it would be better than nothing. Currently a player is able to input maximum G (to the point of blacking out) for extended period of time.

In vertical flight where high speed diving is the norm, blacking out is much easier and ofcourse much frequent. Since Russian planes
- cannot reach speeds above 650km/h
- are mostly crappy at vertical maneuvers
they stick to their best tactic which is low speed horizontal, high G turns.
High G turns require applying high stick pressure. You will not black out at low speed, pulling the stick to the maximum for say 4 minutes. What most red pilots do (be it British or Russian planes) - they continously turn in the same direction until the blue plane stalls out or falls out of the turn circle. That is completely unrealistic. Not all red featured planes had light stick pressure. Some (very much like the Bf109)did require exceptional strenght to get the maximum horizontal turn doable by the aircraft airframe. As a result, in certain planes, only the strongest (and with the most stamina!!!) pilots could not only pull maximum horizontal Gs, but very few of them were ever able to sustain this amount stick pressure.

So in summary, in blue planes you can use trim to pull out of a dive BUT still you black out.
Red planes however are always able to pull their max Gs while in horizontal for unlimited time with no danger of blacking out.

Hence red planes expoit absence of pilot fatigue heavily in their favor.

You can always make it the same as blackout. When you pull max G for say 2minutes, your max stick pressure lowers itself, resulting in virtual pilot being unable to pull max horizontal G. When player lowers the stick pressure, he ragains fatigue and ability to pull maxG (gradually for say 15 seconds).

It is easy, but would make red pilots cry I know.

Exactly.

Anyway, as for the realistic bombing mod of IL2, a 60% accurate detail is better than a 20% accurate, isn't it?

In this case there is no fatigue at all and not only spit pilots but also high speed BnZers (probably in a lesser way) can fight in that way for dozens of minutes; I can tell you that during our 1v1 trainings sometimes the fight end because of fuel, and we are manoeuvring all the time... 30 minutes?

Use an average value and we are happy.

[pupo162]

Originally Posted by 6S.Manu

Exactly.

Anyway, as for the realistic bombing mod of IL2, a 60% accurate detail is better than a 20% accurate, isn't it?

In this case there is no fatigue at all and not only spit pilots but also high speed BnZers (probably in a lesser way) can fight in that way for dozens of minutes; I can tell you that during our 1v1 trainings sometimes the fight end because of fuel, and we are manoeuvring all the time... 30 minutes?

Use an average value and we are happy.

ok, you are right. i was thinking of a mroe ocmplex fatigue thingy. remodellign the G tolerance taking in consideration nearby pass ( 2 mins or so ) G maneuvering its doable. as you said. ( tough being able to trim in black out is a bad bad bug)
~
regarding the 30 min fight. i remenber viewing in history channel a guy who dogfighted 2 zeros during 20 or 30 min. yeah, its dogfights, but yeah.

[5./JG27.Farber]

Interesting.