The MOD mentality....

[Bearcat]

Originally Posted by KG26_Alpha

The problem is your getting a very particular single thing from the mods to make your experience better, but the overall impact is bigger.
New pilots coming to HL give up because of the complexity of getting into a server due to the variation of installations.
I can sit there for hours giving advice on installing IL2 1946 patches, then the mods mob take over bombarding new guys with the best mod pack the new guys leaves confused or follows the advice and cant join any servers due to time outs or messed up installations
I'm all for developing IL2 1946 into a bigger better sim/game and it seems to be heading in the right direction, the quality control probably filters out most of the "feature mods" you mention as some of them cause more problems globally rather than individually, ecran wide heavily loaded cockpits polys etc etc.
As it stands were loosing new pilots by the bucket load.
And calling them fools is not the way to go just because they don't follow your way of mod's thinking.
UP3 RC4 is no longer supporting CooP missions only MDS code.
And I see Fruitbats already calling for the death of CooP missions. > http://ultrapack.il2war.com/index.php/topic,5059.0.html
How long will it be before the mod pack makers start deciding the way they want you to fly IL2 1946
.

Nowhere did I call anyone a fool. If that is not how I roll. If you interpreted my statement as saying you or anyone else was a fool then I apologize, but you misunderstood (If that was indeed your interpretation of what I said). What I said was that this argument or debate if you will, over mods is a foolish waste of time.... and I stand by that firmly. The sim is modded and has been that way for at least the past 5 years, and will be that way from here on out therefore to even debate mods is a waste of time. What will save this sim in the long run is for as many well done mods as possible to be incorporated into the stock sim where and if they can be and for whatever new stuff TD can come up with based on their having the green light from 1C, that the mod community will have to piecemeal being added as time and resources permit thereby making the stock sim more appealing to a broader spectrum of simmers. Evidence for this is already seen in that there are more people flying stock now than any other time since the whole mod community took off. I believe that this is because TD added some of the better, more functionally imersive modsntonthe stock sim and added more of their own content as I said. I think it is great and I would like nothing more than to be able to go into a few decent stock servers, coops ot otherwise, and have a blast. That will be more likely as long as TD keeps going in the direction it is going. That is all I am saying.

[HundertneunGustav]

easy online = new pilots?
are we losing?
the online arguments are okay.
but if we discuss "pilot losses" then one question must also be asked: where are these new pilots recruited from?
online in some sort (forums, mail, newsgroups, other online sims) or do they have an offline providence of some sort?

[KG26_Alpha]

Originally Posted by HundertneunGustav

easy online = new pilots?
are we losing?
the online arguments are okay.
but if we discuss "pilot losses" then one question must also be asked: where are these new pilots recruited from?
online in some sort (forums, mail, newsgroups, other online sims) or do they have an offline providence of some sort?

A lot of new guys are coming from Steam's IL2 1946 and Cliffs Of Dover.

Also, especially on a few squads I speak with, one guy tries it and tells his friends etc etc.

[HundertneunGustav]

4 new members of the SAS have discovered how to fly a "tiger moth" on my desktop... two months ago.

2 of them never considered flying a plane before at all - to them, they were just flying buses with toilets and stewardesses.

Their luck - Monday the youngest of them, 11 years old, beat all of the others: he was the first to be able to take off, place a set of rockets on target and land properly.

Full switch, in a T-6 Texan. It lasted no more than ten minutes, but the Kid was exhausted after that. X-52 and TrackIR... sure got his brain heated up. The others are soon to follow.

they felt the pressure, and are sending me UP/DBW tracks everyday.

[Jumoschwanz]

Originally Posted by Bearcat

The sim is modded and has been that way for at least the past 5 years, and will be that way from here on out therefore to even debate mods is a waste of time.

Well Bearcat then why don't you take that advice and quit participating in something foolish? Debating it? I guess you have to here because you can not BAN people here for starting threads that have critical discussion on the subject like you can at the UBI General Discussion Forum huh? That is why I am banned from the UBI forum. That is what Hitler and other Dictator's do to those with critical opinions who want to practice free speech, and it has been your choice to follow their practices......

It is worth my time to try to make sure people see my point of view, which has always been that the negative impact that non-official mods have had on the IL2 Community and the IL2 sim itself makes them not worth spending time on except for those with self-serving motives.

To some people IL2 Sturmovik is a historical flight sim, to others it is a game, to some it is a social network, and to others who enjoy making mods it is a hobby. That is all fine because IL2 can be all those things, but at times in the past members of some of those groups have put their interests forward at the expense of others.

I was just reading a statement in another thread a modder made about decreasing the armor of tanks from their historical value in UP to "maintain game balance". That is a simple personal judgement call they have made there that can not be switched off by those flying UP. This is just like WD's big tirade about how HE thinks aircraft should overheat and his personal efforts to revert the overheating back to 4.10.

True, even the official version of IL2 is a judgement call, but it is an official judgement call by it's creators or those given the authority to do so, it is as good or better a judgement call than any others out there, and it is the most important to rally around.

For five years Bearcat you have tirelessly put energy into promoting mods on the UBI forum and you have tirelessly suppressed naysayers to serve your special interest. That is odd behavior for someone who considers it a waste of time huh?

[Asheshouse]

Free speech is a right not an obligation.

[HundertneunGustav]

" That is odd behavior for someone who considers it a waste of time huh? "

I think that Bearcat has the ability to sort of "stand on the moon" and observe from a distanced, far off neutral point the pros and the cons of something. Mods, no mods...

The man might see both sides of the medal, could that be the case? choosing which side he wants depending on what he wants to do with the Program at a given time?

And, is that not, sort of, wisdom?

"True, even the official version of IL2 is a judgement call, but it is an official judgement call by it's creators or those given the authority to do so, it is as good or better a judgement call than any others out there, and it is the most important to rally around."

Negative. IMO... negative.
Over at the SAS there are a bunch of Dinosaurs ( tongue in cheek) that hold on to a 4.09 version. (with or without mods)

If the official Version is "the most important one to rally around", that would at the moment be 4.11, right?

so, are the 4.09 fans or the standard, 4.07 players making a mistake, are they veering off the right/official track, just like the modders do? For what ever their reasons are?

are the people with 4.07/4.09 + mods even worse, even further, even farther from the official path, because they lack updates AND are screwing with the files?

"The sim is modded and has been that way for at least the past 5 years, and will be that way from here on out therefore to even debate mods is a waste of time."

Thats a good sentence...
It leads to my question, an honest and innocent one:
What exactly is the aim, the goal of this topic? Besides stating your position and opinion?

Besides learning to appreciate your point of View and your arguments, i can not see how it should teach me something else.

Topics like these were common, when the whole modding thing came "to the public". I have red them when... 2007? 2008?
And never has anything been achieved, besides stating different opinions, and when the discussion derailed (not IF, more like WHEN - they almost always did) a moderator had to intervene. And that always sucks.

[HundertneunGustav]

I went back to the first post, and picked a sentence, that i felt was the center of your opinion:

"Real IL2 aces and make do with what is given to them and fly the official patches without resorting to mods, hacks or cheats."

Let me introduce you to the following. open your mind, just gimme five minutes.

Look, there is "a Dude" here... let me fetch that link... here:
http://www.sas1946.com/main/index.ph...c,19365.0.html

he did a lot of work on the P-47 Loadouts.

concerning this very, very restricted topic of P-47 Loadouts, and the changes in Mission outcomes, by Bombing strafing and aerial Kills...

who is closer to the absolute truth? Ammo-wise. and ONLY about Ammo.
Is this re-shuffling of Information, the application of that info in the game, is that, as you say - a Cheat? Is it a Hack?

I am not out to pull you to the dark side. I do not want to convince you.

What i want, is to show you that not all of the modding work done is evil.

If you understand what has been changed to the P-47, if you by any chance happen to agree: these changes are not official, but, they are reasonable, you might possibly understand why Bearcat can appreciate, or tolerate Mods.

Because Storebror took a Thunderbolt, and spent some time to learn about the plane, and learn how to bring that Plane a bit closer to reality. Virtual reality.

You do not have to agree that mods are good.
But maybe you can understand that mods are not always "hacks and cheats" by intention.

[Bearcat]

Originally Posted by HundertneunGustav

You do not have to agree that mods are good.
But maybe you can understand that mods are not always "hacks and cheats" by intention.

Exactly ..

That is the very reason why I feel that the "debate" over mods is silly and a waste of enrrgy often, depending on the language we use any kind of reasonable discussion can be cut off at the pass by a few words. There is a post right now over @ SHQ that is a classic example of how not to try to present a case if you want it to be discussed reasonably or be taken seriously. The fact that some of the mods were quite well done .. and would fit right in with TDs mission is a bright spot and reason why for me, the very existence of TD means a brighter future for this sim. That says that there is a group of folks who will continue to make improvements and add to the sim and they won't have an agenda like some of the mod communities definitely have. The P-51 load outs could use a look as well.. That they carried rockets is well known.. but not in the stock sim..... yet. It is doable. Perhaps a lot of this stuff is already in the pipeline for TD and because they are not being paid and have lives and jobs etc . it just takes a while. That's cool.... but I see a lot of features in the totality of 4.11 ... that started out as mods from the many bi directional axii that once went in ne direction only, to some of the chages in the QMB and more ..... so the mod=evil ... or appreciation for mods=a XXXXXX who just wants to see his favorite crate fly like a banshee and rule the skies .... that does not compute, and that notion along with the angst that fosters it needs to become a thing of the past. Even if there are still JERKS running around... I would love to see the day when 90% of the features requested for this sim over the years from the mission builder upgrades to the MDS and lots more ... are all in the stock sim and many reasons to fly modded will no longer exist. There will always be some who will prefer modded, there have been cries to open the sim from day one, or those who think that they can do a better job than the stock sim .. or that the stock FMs etc are just wrong.. but I bet if given a reasonable choice .. most would prefer to fly stock.. if for no other reason than security because from where I sit it is a fat that some mod packs seem to favor certain aircraft over others.. while other mod packs seem to be more neutral and where they have tweaked a certain plane they left the stock plane untouched. American planes have always .. it seems to me .. gotten less attention. It took TD to FINALLY .. even if quietly fix the Mustangs FM.. because it is definitely more stable now in 4.11 than in any incarnation of the sim, even when it was first introduced. I read where it wasnt touched .. but it is more stable than ever. Low and slow is still a death sentence as it should be but it is much improved.

[Gabelschwanz Teufel]

Originally Posted by Bearcat

I would love to see the day when 90% of the features requested for this sim over the years from the mission builder upgrades to the MDS and lots more ... are all in the stock sim and many reasons to fly modded will no longer exist.

Agreed 100%. Widescreen support, anyone?