Infographic of the Day: The Debt Superhighway

[Wolf_Rider]

I think the problem is that states are governed by middle-men that work for specific industrial/economic firms and not their citizens.

corporatism

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

corporatism

Yeah, but how to get rid of it? I noticed a relative growths of power coming from the economy and a decline of government/society for quite some time, which begun in the US/UK in the Reagan/Thatcher years and caught on all over the world.

I guess a major reason for that development is because that with the fall of the wall and the end of the cold war governments lost their power base legimicy, with the corporate folks coming to the conclusion they do not need the rest of the people anymore, claiming their own slice of the cake and feeling a bit more equal then the rest. Yanno "we provide the wealth and you better be thankful for us to pay taxes", even if they evade that at all costs to begin with.

Morales in this environment changed from "everything is allowed until it hurts somebody else" to "everything is allowed until it is explictly forbidden"

Blackdogs descritption about those eilites is spot on, by far not reduced to Greece only, though.

[Wolf_Rider]

We're getting into an area I don't think this forum would cater to effectively, or care to allow pursuit of considering the non-politics charter it has, and fair enough to.

At least to say; "Occupy Wall Street" has made a good start in standing up, but it will take the masses not just a handful of protesters to make a change. Is any form of tyranny easy to topple? Make no mistake though, the corporations need people... no people = no power base of control, no workers = no products = no profits = no control/ power. Along these lines think of "people" as battery hens. People penned in tightly in the big cities and working to produce, complete with pecking order (of which some countries have had their populations beaked) and the subsequent attacks on each other because of the pressures of no "space", leading to "space" being a luxury, people are getting sicker and even to collectors going around in the mornings and pulling those (homeless for instance) who died overnight, off the street.

What is a corporation without power or product?


Greece?, I have no personal account of what it is like there on the ground, and that is what is good about forums with an international membership, such as this, as a view can be gleaned, bearing in mind; on the 'net anyone can be anything they want and most anything queried can end up inconclusive" - no reflection, just an observation.
What we're fed here Down Under, is that Greece has a population who's national sport is dodging paying taxes and most are on some sort of welfare ticket/ Government pay cheque... Government corruption and the associated skimming of funds (as BD alluded to), etc notwithstanding.


Something you also would have noticed. Bewulf, is an increase in Governments deciding "they know best".
Something else, the welfare State ideal has engendered a generation with a sense of entitlement, which they are insisting upon.

[Blackdog_kt]

That's the general portrayal abroad. If you want my personal experience for clarification i can say that it's certainly widespread, but mostly in the higher echelons.

It doesn't matter if it's the private or public sector, usually the most effectively and heavily taxed are the lower echelons of both: the more you earn, the easier it seems to avoid taxes. This has a lot to do with the fact that money and connections are things that influence each other and end up in a self-feeding cycle, with certain people growing too big for their shoes at the expense of the mass that does its job, servers in the army (we still have conscription) and pays taxes.

In other words, those who got us into this mess by evading taxes, making bad investments and dodging any kind of contribution to the "team effort" so to speak, are the ones who now expect us to foot the bill

The previous PM for example, the first time he was about to resign due to public pressure (100-150 thousand people demonstrating outside the house of parliament last July/Auhust), he was prevented by his family members. His brother is a CDS holders who stands to directly gain from the country defaulting.

I too don't want to go into specific politics because it's my job to enforce the rules here and there's a no politics rule, so i'll just end it here. I think it's just sad that we've been pitted against each other as people of Europe (perfect smokescreen for those that want to finish up the job of taking away our citizen rights), while the actual dealings are quite easy to perceive. It's a complex situation and in the case of Greece it's also a geopolitical issue, with many major powers competing for access and influence to the region, often in a manner that directly violates our interests (within our own borders, not across the globe) and dominion rights.

I don't want to say more because this is exactly the kind of topic that tends to inflame discussions.

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

I don't want to say more because this is exactly the kind of topic that tends to inflame discussions.

yep!.. there's two topics which should never be discussed at a dinner party, if everyone wishes to remain friends, and that is religion and politics

Thanks for the insight, BD.

[Jaws2002]

It's very obvious that the global financial system is being rigged for a controlled demolition.
I don't even want to know what they planed for us after the crash, but it's scary.

[csThor]

One thing I consider a pillar of the problems and mismanagement we face now is the ... well ... psychological inbreeding of the political and economical elites. When I look at top politicians and managers of Germany I do not see a single person I could envision in average worker's clothes or even a jumpsuit.

These people are recruited from within a caste, a caste which recruits its own offspring to succeed them (hence the psychological inbreeding), whose members never experienced what "real life" is for us ordinary folks. There was a documentary on the education of kids from the upper classes and the overwhelming impression I got was that of an ivory tower. They grow up surrounded by pomp and circumstance, are constantly being told they're going to be decision makers (with all the pressure that brings along) and leave the educational system without ever having seen what life really is about for 99% of the people but with firm conviction that they're the masters of their own fate (or rather - masters of the world). This entitlement ... I mean I thought we'd been long since past the times of god-given rulers.

[Viking]

Originally Posted by Jaws2002

It's very obvious that the global financial system is being rigged for a controlled demolition.
I don't even want to know what they planed for us after the crash, but it's scary.

The scary thing is that its not controlled and there is no plan B! They only try and keep it going the same way as long as they posibly can.

Viking

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Nothing new, however, those numbers are not that much higher then ten years ago. Just the attitude towards it changed. Italy in 1999 had a much higher debt then today, for example. Nobody was bothered about it. And that is why this whole finacial hokus pokus is such a pervert affair, it's pure psychology, defined by speculators and rating agencies. Has nothing to do anymore with any kind of laid out rules or fixed margins. A simple rumor can decide about the solvency of entire countries now.

That said, I personally, and to be clear, I speak here for myself only, as a german I rather pay and try to make the EU work then drop back to the times of european national states with all that implies.

+ 1
Eloquently put as usual, I totally agree with you Bewolf.

It's all media scare, they change the size of exchange currencies (selling debts for instance), but it will sort itself out,it's in everybody's interest. The only important aspect is understanding what the next exchange currency will be before the others get at it.

Historically we've been in far worse scenarios, and don't get scared by trillions of dollars in debt,because it's all proportional to your GDP, it's not that we're more in debt today than 20 years ago,it's only inflation caused by capitalist market.

To make it simple: a bag of crisps was 5p 20 years ago,today it's 70p,but it's all proportional to the changes in the costs of life,same rule applies to debt.

Truth is that we're ALL on the same boat: if Europe and USA go down,so will China and India,cos they wouldn't have anybody to do business with.

We've been mostly ignoring the exponential growth of India and China,the cause being that markets move way faster than public opinion.

It's a very large and complex topic (I just got out of a 2 days' conference on it!),but fascinating nonetheless

[Damixu]

I think we Europeans should use US tactics on boosting our economy. We should wage war let's say for example against US, so we both could boost our economies immensely
Although, "boosting" of economy was not what happened with war in Iraq and Afghanistan so I guess I made my point moot.







And for the slow minds this was purely a joke, no wish to raise animosity against anyone nor any country.