Infographic of the Day: The Debt Superhighway

[Blackdog_kt]

I think the problem is that states are governed by middle-men that work for specific industrial/economic firms and not their citizens.

I live in Greece and nobody knows where the money we owe went or what we did with them, but we're called upon to pay them back. This year they instituted an extra tax for house owners that comes in your power bill. If you don't pay the tax they cut off your power. Essentially, they found a way to make people pay rent for their own property.

The ones who know where the money went are:

a) the ruling elite of the country (PMs/ministers/etc of years past)
b) a few middlemen that secure sales for their companies in various industries and
c) the politicians in other EU countries

They all pretend to know nothing, but what usually happens is this:
-Greece wants to buy some frigates or aircraft (let's take this example, as it's quite expensive and well covered in local media).

-The chiefs of staff will state requirements for a competition.

-The political leadership will ignore the military's specs and do its own thing. If the PM or defense minister is pro-US he'll back the Super Hornet, but the economy minister who is pro-German will promote the Typhoon, etc, etc

-They will buy whatever the political power struggle decides and then it's time for the bonus contract items like technology transfer.

-This is where the complicit nature of other EU partners kicks in: it's cheaper for EADS or KMW to pay money to a Greek official to select their system, than pay for technology/manufacturing transfer like it would be done in a normal contract.

So, in other words, Greece buys a lot of stuff it needs, at inflated prices that go in the pockets of local sharks, in order to keep the EU industry going, with money loaned from EU banks.

Just for fun, let's see some examples. Greece, a measly 10 million people, absorbs about 16% of Germany's defense exports and maintains armed forces 50% the size of the German ones (a country with 7 times bigger population), bought a bunch of Leopard 2s but the ammo for them was in a separate contract (and they asked 50 million for the cannon rounds) and is forced to keep buying if it wants to get the so called "bail out" loans. I kid you not, this is stipulated in the papers these geniuses signed.

We're supposed to be taxed to hell, while paying for weapons from specific providers and we are not allowed to merge our debts with the debts of others toward us (like for example the loan Germany got from Greece during the occupation in WWII, that's not war reparations it's clearly stated in the records that it's a loan and it's not paid yet).

All in all, the plan is to get the country deeper and deeper in debt and in a position that it cannot defend itself or exercise dominion rights, so that one day a few high profile companies can come in and say:

"Hey, don't pay back the money you owe that bank. Let me drill for oil in your seas and i'll keep whatever i can get".

Fun fact: Just south of Crete alone and within the Greek exclusive economic zone, the hydrocarbon deposits are estimated to be enough to pay off our entire debt and then some. It was disputed at first, but since deposits tend to run in neighboring regions and seeing how Cyrpus hit the jackpot, most people in the field believe that the deposits extend to the south of Crete too.

But the local leadership here prefers to makes us completely broke first and then pass them off to someone else. Why? Because most probably they're getting paid by them. Nobody is so stupid, but many are treacherous enough

And who's them? Not the German people or the other European citizens, the average German hasn't had a pay raise in the past 10 years.

It's the people who run Europe and want to sacrifice the south hoping to delay their own demise by skinning the southern countries alive. The same countries that borrow money from northern Europe's banks to buy from and keep northern Europe's industries in business. If the south is gone, the north will soon follow. And since the south seems to be gone anyway (it also has to deal with the immigration waves caused by the wars that - surprise - the north usually pursues), the pervading sentiment is to pillage them for all they are worth to delay the fall of the north.

And just like the leaderships are at each other's throats like this, they pass it on to their citizens too: they screw up for all of us, while we are busy blaming each other...the Germans think we're lazy, the Greeks think the Germans are trying to take revenge for WWII and we're too busy with all that to see what's really happening: the sale of nation-states to private interests

I think the time is close to repeat what Roosevelt said during the 1929 crisis to the big money companies: "give up your hats so you don't lose your heads". Otherwise sooner or later, in no particular order, we are all going to become slaves under a false pretense of democracy.

Capitalism? Sure, but not in a way that puts companies above states. Companies thrive because of states, the people work, pay taxes and go to the army, that's what creates the framework of stability wherein private business thrives. So, when a business becomes to big for its shoes, it's the state's job to remind it that "you only got here because of me, so i'm calling the shots". Too bad the policy makers in Europe are too soft for that

[Wolf_Rider]

I think the problem is that states are governed by middle-men that work for specific industrial/economic firms and not their citizens.

corporatism

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

corporatism

Yeah, but how to get rid of it? I noticed a relative growths of power coming from the economy and a decline of government/society for quite some time, which begun in the US/UK in the Reagan/Thatcher years and caught on all over the world.

I guess a major reason for that development is because that with the fall of the wall and the end of the cold war governments lost their power base legimicy, with the corporate folks coming to the conclusion they do not need the rest of the people anymore, claiming their own slice of the cake and feeling a bit more equal then the rest. Yanno "we provide the wealth and you better be thankful for us to pay taxes", even if they evade that at all costs to begin with.

Morales in this environment changed from "everything is allowed until it hurts somebody else" to "everything is allowed until it is explictly forbidden"

Blackdogs descritption about those eilites is spot on, by far not reduced to Greece only, though.

[Wolf_Rider]

We're getting into an area I don't think this forum would cater to effectively, or care to allow pursuit of considering the non-politics charter it has, and fair enough to.

At least to say; "Occupy Wall Street" has made a good start in standing up, but it will take the masses not just a handful of protesters to make a change. Is any form of tyranny easy to topple? Make no mistake though, the corporations need people... no people = no power base of control, no workers = no products = no profits = no control/ power. Along these lines think of "people" as battery hens. People penned in tightly in the big cities and working to produce, complete with pecking order (of which some countries have had their populations beaked) and the subsequent attacks on each other because of the pressures of no "space", leading to "space" being a luxury, people are getting sicker and even to collectors going around in the mornings and pulling those (homeless for instance) who died overnight, off the street.

What is a corporation without power or product?


Greece?, I have no personal account of what it is like there on the ground, and that is what is good about forums with an international membership, such as this, as a view can be gleaned, bearing in mind; on the 'net anyone can be anything they want and most anything queried can end up inconclusive" - no reflection, just an observation.
What we're fed here Down Under, is that Greece has a population who's national sport is dodging paying taxes and most are on some sort of welfare ticket/ Government pay cheque... Government corruption and the associated skimming of funds (as BD alluded to), etc notwithstanding.


Something you also would have noticed. Bewulf, is an increase in Governments deciding "they know best".
Something else, the welfare State ideal has engendered a generation with a sense of entitlement, which they are insisting upon.

[Blackdog_kt]

That's the general portrayal abroad. If you want my personal experience for clarification i can say that it's certainly widespread, but mostly in the higher echelons.

It doesn't matter if it's the private or public sector, usually the most effectively and heavily taxed are the lower echelons of both: the more you earn, the easier it seems to avoid taxes. This has a lot to do with the fact that money and connections are things that influence each other and end up in a self-feeding cycle, with certain people growing too big for their shoes at the expense of the mass that does its job, servers in the army (we still have conscription) and pays taxes.

In other words, those who got us into this mess by evading taxes, making bad investments and dodging any kind of contribution to the "team effort" so to speak, are the ones who now expect us to foot the bill

The previous PM for example, the first time he was about to resign due to public pressure (100-150 thousand people demonstrating outside the house of parliament last July/Auhust), he was prevented by his family members. His brother is a CDS holders who stands to directly gain from the country defaulting.

I too don't want to go into specific politics because it's my job to enforce the rules here and there's a no politics rule, so i'll just end it here. I think it's just sad that we've been pitted against each other as people of Europe (perfect smokescreen for those that want to finish up the job of taking away our citizen rights), while the actual dealings are quite easy to perceive. It's a complex situation and in the case of Greece it's also a geopolitical issue, with many major powers competing for access and influence to the region, often in a manner that directly violates our interests (within our own borders, not across the globe) and dominion rights.

I don't want to say more because this is exactly the kind of topic that tends to inflame discussions.

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

I don't want to say more because this is exactly the kind of topic that tends to inflame discussions.

yep!.. there's two topics which should never be discussed at a dinner party, if everyone wishes to remain friends, and that is religion and politics

Thanks for the insight, BD.

[Jaws2002]

It's very obvious that the global financial system is being rigged for a controlled demolition.
I don't even want to know what they planed for us after the crash, but it's scary.