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| Gameplay questions threads Everything about playing CoD (missions, tactics, how to... and etc.) |
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#1
02-02-2012, 05:39 PM
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I've been browsing the linked thread on ATAG as well.
General observations and notes: 1) I tried the 111P some time ago, when Bliss wanted volunteers to test the mission on ATAG #2 before he moved it to ATAG #1. It seemed like all of its compasses are bugged/reversed: the magnetic on the right cockpit wall was acting all weird but the tooltips were giving a proper reading, the repeater was not aligned with the magnetic and everything was backwards. Now it was late and i was a bit sleepy, but i think i wasn't imagining things. Can anyone confirm this? Maybe it's just me and i have a corrupt file or something, in which case i will do a file validation through Steam. 2) Last time i tried it, the bombsight tracks correctly for the correct TAS and altitude, but it's true that it drops a bit short. I don't know the effect of the workarounds you guys use because i haven't tried them. As mentioned in the ATAG forum's thread that's linked in the OP, keep in mind that altitude and speed are interconnected in regards to the effects they have on a bomb drop: you can fool the bombsight into a correct drop by using incorrect values if you have the right combination and that's probably what Keller is doing. In that sense, it might be better to use actual values for altitude and tweaked values for TAS, because the speed scale is bigger: to bomb from higher altitudes you'll run out of available altitude settings on the bombsight, so it's probably better to tweak the speed. If what jimbop says in the ATAG thread is true (that they have mixed up imperial and metric units in the sights), then maybe the solution is much simpler: just convert kmh to mph and use that value. One question on this though: do you use mph IAS or mph TAS? I would test everything right now but i have an exam tomorrow morning. If you guys can help out so we can come up with a complete checklist, we won't only be able to bomb accurately but also pinpoint what the bug is. Thanks for the help thus far and keep up the good work  P.S. For some reason i find the course AP harder to work with than in the 110. Maybe it's because the 111 is slower to respond to control inputs. Can you guys confirm that a 5-7 degree offset between directional gyro and selected heading is needed to keep it level when engaging the AP? Another Edit: There's are carat-shaped markers on the bombsight reticule that tell you when the drop occurs. These are blurry on my screen because my low RAM doesn't let me load the full size textures (even when set on medium), but still visible. These were present in IL2 as well and worked the same. I think i remember how it works, feel free to test and confirm if it holds true in CoD. So, open jimbop's video here, pause immediately and go to a high enough resolution: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...ZO3vszC0#t=18s The double triangle marker (one solid yellow and the other just outlined) you see next to the outer curved scale is moved around by changing the bombsight angle. Essentially it's the distance to target,calculated correctly when the correct altitude is set. Essentially the sight does trigonometry for you, it knows the angle at which it is pointing and your distance above ground, so it calculates the horizontal distance. There should be another single, solid triangle marker visible at the bottom of the scale marking how far away from the target you need to release to get a hit. This is also calculated based on your altitude and speed. When your distance from the target matches the required distance to release, the bombsight drops. You'll see now that when engaging automation, the double triangle marker starts to move down the scale, showing how the distance to target decreases (assuming the sight is well calibrated and tracks correctly). When it coincides with the single triangle marker, that's when your bombs release. You can also use this knowledge to do partial drops. If you manually track a target by moving the bombsight angle down as you get nearer to it, the double marker will also move down. When it coincides with the single marker you can drop a couple of eggs, then do the same for another target further on down. Not very useful for carpet bombing and certainly not until we iron out the kinks in how to work the bombsights accurately, but if we get there you could for example drop a pair of 250s on one hangar and another pair on another hangar at the other end of the field. Hope it helps I don't know how much of this is accurate for CoD, but that's pretty much how it used to work. Last edited by Blackdog_kt; 02-02-2012 at 06:19 PM. 
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#2
02-02-2012, 08:23 PM
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Thanks for the info, Blackdog_kt. I'll have a closer look at the sight triangles later. For the 'fix' mentioned on ATAG I use IAS rather than TAS. I hope they fix the release timing in the next patch but I don't even know if they are aware of it.
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#3
02-02-2012, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
1) the compasses on the 111P are bugged like you said. The magnetic on the right isn't working at all, the repeater is turning into the wrong direction. The tooltips are correct. 2) again, the like you said. Everything seems to work, but the drops are short. I have produced kind of an tutorial-video (in german) how the autopilot and the bombsight this is working. http://www.youtube.com/user/nadasero.../3/YjKzsuDPuoM The video is in 1080 so the sight can be seen in HD. I think the marker for the drop-distance is not working correctly. It is not possible to see when the bombs are droped. According to my tests it is when the two triangles are at about 270 degrees (depending on altutude and speed). The AP is allways a few degrees to the left. If you engage AP centered, it starts to turn left and oszilates for quite a while. For the drop, I'm using the second stage of the AP. This stage is controling all three axis and keeps the artificial horizon centered. You get a very stable flight, but the plane drops until an IAS of approx. 300km/h is reached. At this speed, the plane keeps altitude and direction very stable and makes targeting easy. It is possible to control elevation with the engines. In the video, you can also see the folowing problems: In the bombsight-position, it is hard to read the dials for drop delay. They can only be seen in wide angle. Only 7 lights on the dial for the number of bombs to drop are switched on. There is no indicator and no switch for arming the bombs, so you need a key and listen to the klick-sound to make sure they are armed (this much better solved in the 110). The 111 is still the best for level bombing because the AP in the Ju88 is not working at all.
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#4
02-02-2012, 08:45 PM
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Nice tip nadasero, thanks. I'll give the other mode a go since I usually drop at around 290 IAS anyway. Regarding compass problems I have only paid attention to the tooltip and not always even that since I know the maps well enough to align the target by dead reckoning. I then activate AP with DG (whatever it happens to read I know that it is straight ahead) + 9 degrees. This usually sets me up well enough for the final approach and I can tinker left or right as required.
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#5
02-03-2012, 12:30 AM
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So, mode 1 is for navigating (only turns by ailerons), while mode 2 is for the bomb run (keeps wings level, turns by rudder)?
(I posted the same question in the other thread about the 88 too by the way, then i came here to draw your attention to it and saw nadasero has posted here as well  )I assume that mode 2 autopilot still needs a working gyro compass to set your headings, right? So, i think we have a rough guide to go by at this point. Let me also cover a small procedure that's called "getting on the step". As many of you might have noticed, certain aircraft seem to cruise better and faster after a bit of descend and they keep that extra speed without losing altitude. Let's say we want to cruise at 4000m. It might be faster to climb to 4500m and then descend back down to 4000m and trim level, than just staying at 4km and waiting for speed to increase. Flying FSX add-ons on a friend's PC i discovered that this is actually a real world procedure that was advised and used in various large aircraft (like the Stratocruiser and the B-17). So, if we use this for our He-111 too, we'd get something like this: 1) Use the He111H if the reversed compasses on the instrument panel confuse you (like they confuse me  )2) Climb to altitude + 500m (500 might be too much, we'll have to test this out). 3)Descend back to your chosen cruise altitude and trim level. 4)Calibrate your gyrocompass 5) Set desired heading at gyro heading + 9 6) Engage AP mode 2 7) Steer the aircraft left/right via the autopilot to align the target. 8 ) Convert IAS from km/h to mph and enter that value in the bombsight. Enter altitude above ground in the bombsight. 9) Place crosshairs on target and engage bombsight automation. 10) Open bomb bays, arm bombs and wait. Does this look correct? I'll have to test this out soon
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#6
02-03-2012, 12:55 AM
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Blackdog, that is the 'correct' way to do it and I can confirm that AP 2 does work very well. Extremely stable after the initial descent to ~300 KPH so thanks for that, nadasero.
Your step 10 needs a modification: ensure the crosshairs stay on the target by manual adjustment with the Sight Up control. The MPH velocity setting, whilst correct for the RELEASE timing is incorrect for the SIGHT timing. Annoying, to say the least.
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#7
02-03-2012, 05:26 PM
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Blackdog
That is more or less how it is done. Unfortunately, I don't have any histrocal data about the autopilots in those maschines. I just did some testflights and found this to be the best way to do it. It is strange, that the developers are spending lots of time, to build those functions in to the simulation and then there is not a single word in the manuals about how they work and even that they exist. How are we supposed to find out? The speed in your Point 8 it not that important. The speed is entered for an first estimation. The exact speed is measured with the croshair. The speed and the movement to the side has to be corrected until the croshair remains on a position. This eliminates the influence of the wind. Now, the bomb sight knows the exact speed over Ground and the course it is moving. The course can be changed with the AP and the bombing is done with the automatic. If everything is done correctly and the drops are still short, it is a misinterpretation of the speed in the simulation. (The ground crew has to recalibrate the equipment). It may be that it is on purpose. If a series of 8 Bombs is selected, it might be a good idea to drop the first bombs early in order to hit the taget with the Bombs in the middle. In this case, a single bomb would drop later than the first of a series. Actually the german Lotfe is kind of a copy of the Norden device used in US Bombers. I have done a lot of flights on the B17 with the Mighty 8th on the Amiga (a millenium ago). So the Lotfe was pretty familliar to me. At that time, they had about 500 pages of manual just for the B17 in a game that was much simpler than anything we have today.
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#8
02-03-2012, 11:41 PM
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Thanks for the reply Nadasero. I also spent a lot of time with B-17 II:The mighty 8th back in the day and i remember the automated bombsight as well
You are correct about speed, it's just an initial estimation and then you fine tune by watching how it tracks the target. What i'm not sure about is the speed conversions, as the bomb sight tracks a bit fast: Quote:
I'm trying to avoid ambiguities here, so we can come up with something more or less standard that works, until the kinks are patched out. I tried it in one of the free flight missions yesterday and it is true that mode 2 works very well. There are still some oscillations in altitude, especially when making bigger turns with the rudder in mode 2 you lose some, but i have found a workaround for this too: i switch between AP modes. First of all i trim out to fly more or less steady (the 111 has aileron trim too in addition to rudder and elevator trim and i think the 88 does too, can't wait to fly it once its gyro is patched to work), so that i can calibrate my gyros and prepare the autopilot. Then i engage mode 1 AP during the climb out. Mode 1 only controls the ailerons, so you are free to trim nose up or down manually and get your desired climb rate. Nearing my chosen altitude i start to trim for a lower rate of climb to gain airspeed while leveling off. The 111 is a bit tricky here, because speed changes take time and just when you think you are level, speed increases and gives you more climb rate. Nothing that can't be gotten used too though. Nearing the target i climb a bit higher than my chosen altitude, so that i have a bit of "room" for the slight descend when mode 2 will be engaged. I have found out that it takes a descend of less than 200m on average to go from 250km/h (a usual climb speed) to 300km/h (the speed you need to keep level with mode 2 engaged). So if i want to bomb from 4000m, i will fly on mode 1 until i reach 4200m and then engage mode 2. Like i said, turning wings level with the rudder is inefficient because of sideslip and you will lose some altitude while lining up the target. Just press your "previous AP mode" key to go to mode 1 when you are satisfied with your course, it will start climbing but it's good to keep the climb rate low to conserve airspeed: the lower the "gap" between your climb speed and 300km/h, the less time and altitude it takes to transiiton to level flight once you engage mode 2. By repeating this correction process a couple of times during the run-in to the target, you can arrive at the target vicinity (within 10-15km) and be within 200m of your chosen altitude. At that point you switch to mode 2 exclusively and work the bombsight. Useful notes: Even when zoomed in on the sight, you can press your "look at dashboard" key to get a glimpse of the bombardier's instruments (works in the Blenheim too). So, you can be looking through the sight, keep the button pressed to see your airpeed and altitude gauges, release the button to go back to the crosshairs and correct your bombsight alt and speed as needed. Also, i think i have found out how to give gunner control back to the AI. I was in the middle of being chased by a 109 when flying a Blenheim on ATAG, i switched to the turret and then i remembered this deactivates the gunners. So, before i switched back to the pilot seat i had an idea, i pressed the keys that give control to the AI pilots (i think ctrl-C is the default). Going back to pilot seat and then back to the turret, i could see that the turret was pointing in a different direction, which means the AI gunner was tracking the 109 and was working. Pressing ctrl-C again before going to the pilot's seat i brought up the net stats: it said that i was pilot and bombardier on that Blenheim, but not gunner. So, i think it works like this: If flying a plane with dual controls (Tiger Moth and Br.20), pressing ctrl-C while in the cockpit gives the controls to the AI co-pilot. If you are in a gunner seat, pressing ctrl-C before switching to another position gives the AI control of your currently occupied gunner position. So, just press it before changing spot to re-enable your AI gunners. I haven't tested this in the German bombers but it should be easy to: just checking the net stats shows the positions that the player is in control of. So, that's all i have to share so far. I also have a couple of things to ask Engines and power: At least in the He-111H model, it seems that the engines are a bit "weak" and it's not really the engines, but the prop modeling. Even at full pitch and full throttle it's impossible to exceed their limits on level flight. This is evident during the take off run, when RPM spools up so slowly that it's impossible to achieve the rated power values. Also, does the sim model the propellers as constant speed units or are they variable pitch (like the 109) but with the pitch control on a slider (unlike the 109)? I will have to experiment more with this. Maybe lowering pitch after the climb out or when at higher altitudes will give me more speed and consecutively a better climb, while also increasing manifold pressure due to the coarsening effect. The reason this is important? When the memory leak gets fixed we'll be flying in formation. In order for wingmen to catch up and have a bit of power reserve to adjust their position, the leader flies at cruise settings. If the leader flies on full out power, the wingmen have no extra power to use for staying in position. However, using full power seems necessary to get the required 300km/h for using mode 2 AP and even then some altitude loss occurs over time even when not turning at all (with time compression on, it looked like i was losing 100-200m every 5-10 minutes or so when flying on mode 2 AP, without turning at all). If we fine-tune our engine handling to be able to keep 300km/h or slightly more with a bit of power reserve, then wingmen will be able to formate properly while the leader will also be able to stay level with mode 2 AP engaged. Finally, i know the rads need the engine to be working before they can be opened (same as in the Stuka). The oil rad position is visible from the in-cockpit sliders and levers. Is there any instrument that indicates the position of the water rads (for example, like the colored bars on the wings of 109s and 110s)? Sideslip: How do you account for it in the bombsight? In the Blenheim, you just read the sideslip from the turn and bank indicator and use that one (adding the bombsight parameter in the direction of the actual slip). In the He111 with its more accurate and magnified sight however, i have seen that even when the ball is centered there is a bit of drift. This could be simply because of wind. So, how do i calibrate it? Do i input bombsight sideslip to the direction of the actual one or opposite as seen on instruments? If instruments (ball) are centered and i only see the sideslip from the bombsight, do i add sideslip in the direction the crosshairs is drifting towards in relation to the aim point or the opposite? For example, if my crosshairs moves left of the target point, do i add sideslip left or right? I guess that after adding the correct sideslip value i will probably have to realign the crosshairs with the target. I think we're really getting close to completely nailing it down guys, good work. This way we can not only fly, but also spot the bugs and issues. We started off with how to get the Blenheim off the ground safely, then how to bomb in it (it's less accurate but simpler to manage) and now we are almost done with the more complex bombers. Let's keep it up and by the time the patch comes, we'll probably know enough to start flying any type of bomber in the sim in formations. This will give the sim some more variety in gameplay when flying online. I still can't wait for the Ju88 gyro fix, that one is awesome (although it struggles to get above 3-4km with a full load).
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